Mine kampf

[PoorOldSpike]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/ExIS/mines-icons.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/mines1.jpg

(Note - Even if any kind of mine explodes it doesn't vanish, the field still remains 'live' and deadly til the end of the game (unless cleared)


http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub1/minesw.jpg

[PoorOldSpike]

CLEARING BURIED A-T MINES

PIC 1 -The Russians have placed a buried AT-minefield in this gap
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/mine1.jpg



PIC 2 - But of course the Germans can't see it yet
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/mine2.jpg



PIC 3 - The Germans begin moving and the leading infantry platoon walks straight through the mines without seeing or triggering them, because only tanks and vehicles trigger AT-mines..
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/mine3.jpg

[PoorOldSpike]

PIC 4 - However when the armoured car tries to move through, it's blown up and the mine icon appears on the map.
This is the ONLY way in CM to find buried AT-mines, by having something drive over them and get toasted, which is why it's a good idea to let cheap cars lead an armoured advance instead of valuable tanks.
Note -there's about a 66% chance a minefield will be triggered when entered, so you still won't know there's one there if the first vehicle get through but you can always send two or more cars through suspicious gaps to increase the chance of triggering.
Oh, and although you can use jeeps, kubels and trucks instead of armoured cars, it's not a good idea because they're very fragile and can be hurt too easily by enemy small arms fire, and often won't survive long enough to probe for mines out front..
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/mine4.jpg



PIC 5 -I order the pioneer platoon to run into the minefield to clear it because ordinary infantry can't clear mines..
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/mine4A.jpg




PIC 6- They throw satchel charges (arrowed) into the minefield and bingo, its cleared (inset - notice the mine icon disappears)..
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/mine5.jpg



PIC 7 - Breakthrough! the panzers stream through the cleared gap..(pushing the immobd car to one side!)
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/mine10.jpg

[PoorOldSpike]

CLEARING DAISYCHAIN AT-MINES

PIC 1 - Daisies are easily seen because they sit on top of the ground but you must still get to within about 100 metres (clear weather/ good visibility) of them before they appear on the map..
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/dais1.jpg


PIC 2 - Move your pioneers up to them..
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/dais2.jpg


PIC 3 - And after a short while they vanish (inset)..
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/daisend.jpg

[PoorOldSpike]

CLEARING ANTI-PERSONNEL MINES

PIC 1 - The road up ahead looks clear because the mines are buried..
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/pers1.jpg



PIC 2 - An armoured car drives through them without seeing or triggering them because only infantry will trigger them..
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/pers2.jpg

[PoorOldSpike]

PIC 3 - The leading infantry platoon walks into the minefield, triggering it and taking casualties.That's the only way to find anti-personnel mines, by walking somebody into them to trigger them. Its icon now appears on map.
Infantry triggers anti-personnel mines about 80% of the time..
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/pers4.jpg



PIC 4 - The pioneers are ordered up to throw satchel charges (arrowed) and successfully clear the mines (inset).
WARNING - don't walk them nearer than 10 metres to the mine icon or they'll get blown up themselves.
Note the survivors of the infantry platoon up front crawled through and around the field and formed up further on, minus a few individual men..
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/pers6.jpg

[PoorOldSpike]

ARTILLERY CLEARS MINES
Cmbb manual p135 - "Minefields can be reduced or eliminated by shellfire(though this will not be explicitly shown - you just have to judge roughly by how many craters you see and hope)" --

I placed a Russian buried AT-minefield on the crossroads and then plastered it with a huge barrage of mixed light/ med/ heavy arty.
Then I drove the panzer column straight through it and no mines were triggered, proving the field was neutralised by the barrage..
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub2/Art-v-mines3b.gif



However, in this second test below I only fired an 81mm mortar barrage (total 150 rounds) but the minefield remained active and immobd the first panzer that tried to cross it.
Conclusion-Arty clears minefields but you need lots of medium or heavy-calibre shells to do it, so it's hardly worth bothering in most situations.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub2/Art-v-mines5.jpg

[PoorOldSpike]

Here's a new series of tests to clarify things-

DAISY-CHAINS
1- The russian daisies are sitting on the crossroads but the approaching tank is too far away to see them-
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/5417/aaaqnq.gif



2- But as he closes to about 100 metres the mines are spotted, (grid squares are 20 metres)
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/8354/bbbd.gif

[PoorOldSpike]

3- I run a platoon of ordinary infantry onto the mines but they can't lift them despite sitting there for a number of turns because they lack the training-
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6416/cccpxv.gif



4- So I run a pioneer platoon in and the mines vanish in one turn. NOTE- the pioneers had NO satchels, they simply (abstractedly) lifted the mines by hand because pioneers/engineers have the training.
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6734/dddn.gif

[PoorOldSpike]

BURIED AT-MINES

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s134/Nort_photo/Minefield.jpg

1- I sit a pioneer platoon on the mines BUT THEY CAN'T SEE THEM-
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4837/ffflhs.gif



2- So I run the tank over them to make them blow and appear on map, because running a vehicle over buried AT-mines is the ONLY way to detect them, even if it risks blowing up the vehicle like what happens here. (there's about a 66% chance of triggering per vehicle)
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6318/ggghcx.gif

[PoorOldSpike]

3- Now that the mines have appeared, one of the pioneer squads hurls a satchel charge onto it to make it disappear-
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3155/hhhj.gif



4- This separate pioneer test WITHOUT satchels shows that they WON'T lift buried AT-mines despite sitting on them for a number of turns-
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3838/iiic.gif

[PoorOldSpike]

ANTI-PERSONNEL MINES

1- Pioneers (and ordinary infantry) CANNOT spot them-
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2599/llle.gif



2- The only way to detect them is if somebody walks into them and triggers them like this; here they detonate and a man is lost, but they now appear on map, (there's about an 80% chance of triggering anti-personnel mines)-
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1369/mmmi.gif



3- And a pioneer squad hurls a satchel to get rid of them-
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/463/nnnf.gif

[PoorOldSpike]

POSTSCRIPT

If you want to confirm the type of minefields anytime, run a 'target' line to them and note the readout.(APRSN means anti-personnel)
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/4139/kkka.gif



Incidentally, area-firing into a minefield does NOT make it vanish as this test proved, the tanks fire all their HE shells into it to no effect, it's still there, live and dangerous (note the craters)-
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4251/eeeb.gif

[Mt. Carmel Hill]

Great info Spike!!! Thank you for sharing! :-)

[Jonny]

POSTSCRIPT

Incidentally, area-firing into a minefield does NOT make it vanish as this test proved, the tanks fire all their HE shells into it to no effect, it's still there, live and dangerous (note the craters)-
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4251/eeeb.gif

I seem to remember somebody doing a test where they arty'd minefields and showed that although the arty didn't make the mines dissapear it did reduce their effectiveness, i'm guessing the same applies to tank area firing

[PoorOldSpike]

Russians

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub4/minewseep.jpg

[Cue-Ball]

I seem to remember somebody doing a test where they arty'd minefields and showed that although the arty didn't make the mines dissapear it did reduce their effectiveness, i'm guessing the same applies to tank area firing

I was curious if this was the case, so I ran several tests: I sent a dozen PzIVs, single file, through a single mine field.

The first set of tests I simply moved all 12 Panzers across a single mine field. The first time I tried this only 5 Panzers made it out, all the others were immobilized and the crew bailed. The second time I tried it 3 tanks hit mines and 9 made it through safely. The third time I tried 5 tanks hit mines and 7 made it through safely. So, it's obviously fairly random, but with pretty heavy losses each time.

Next I ran a similar test: I area fired into the mines for one turn with all 12 tanks before moving. After the barrage of HE (60 seconds of fire from 12 Panzers; 80 shells or so) I drove the tanks across the mined square. The first tank hit a mine and became immobilized, but the other 11 tanks drove right through without a loss. The second time I tried this 2 tanks were damaged and 10 were okay. The third try, only one tank was damaged and 11 were okay. Much better results after a turn of HE barrage.

That worked so well, I wanted to see how it would work with only a few tanks laying down HE fire. This time I only fired using 5 tanks for 60 seconds (7 shells apiece; about 35 total). This time 3 of the tanks hit mines and the rest made it through safely. I tried a second time with the same result; 3 damaged, 9 okay. I tried a third time 1 tank was damaged and 11 were okay.

Firing HE rounds at a mine field is obviously productive, but even after a heavy barrage you're pretty much guaranteed to lose a tank or two out of a dozen. However, a heavier barrage DOES make a difference, with fewer rounds on target generally resulting in higher losses (with one exception during the 9 tests I ran).

This is going to come in very handy since I'm playing a scenario right now where the opponent has anti-tank mines and I've got no Pioneer squads. The problem is going to be laying down HE fire for one or two full turns without getting shot up!

[Bert Blitzkrieg]

Driving fast through/over a minefield results in a bigger chance of setting the mines of then driving slow.

[PoorOldSpike]

MINEFIELDS STAY DANGEROUS THE WHOLE GAME, it just keeps on exploding, but the detonation chance seems to get lower and lower after each explosion as if the field is slowly depleting.
In other words no matter how many times it explodes during the game, it'll probably never run out of mines.
In this test I ran a bunch of panzers up and down the dirt road over the buried AT-minefield for 30 turns and they were being blown up at intervals over the whole 30 tns, the minefield exploded 13 times in total, and destroyed or immobd all the 13 tanks in this pic.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub2/mineblast.jpg

[PoorOldSpike]

"Kursk"
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub1/kurskmin.jpg

[Cue-Ball]

Driving fast through/over a minefield results in a bigger chance of setting the mines of then driving slow.

I did a lot of experimentation and found this not the case at all. I replicated my earlier test (moving through the mine field single file) using Fast and Hunt instead of Move.

Fast averaged 3.3 tanks damaged out of 12.
Move averaged 4.3 tanks damaged out of 12.
Hunt averaged 4.7 tanks damaged out of 12.

It seems as though the faster you go, the less likely you are to be damaged. My guess is that damage is calculated by the amount of time spent in the mines (and a random factor) instead of how "carefully" the crews are supposedly moving.

[Bert Blitzkrieg]

I did a lot of experimentation and found this not the case at all. I replicated my earlier test (moving through the mine field single file) using Fast and Hunt instead of Move.

Fast averaged 3.3 tanks damaged out of 12.
Move averaged 4.3 tanks damaged out of 12.
Hunt averaged 4.7 tanks damaged out of 12.

It seems as though the faster you go, the less likely you are to be damaged. My guess is that damage is calculated by the amount of time spent in the mines (and a random factor) instead of how "carefully" the crews are supposedly moving.

OK, never tested it myself, but my view was the result of personal experience (which was wrong appearently) and posts I read (here or on other forums) on this subject before.
Thanks for the testing !

[Zhukov's Ghost]

Cueball, can you give us more detail / data regarding your minefield tests? (How many runs, how many tanks, etc?)

[Cue-Ball]

I'd love to post a screenshot, but I did the tests on my other machine and don't want to recreate the whole scenario just for a screen capture. :-)

Basically, I just took the default scenario map (a big flat slab of open ground), added a line of trees with only one 20x20 meter opening (which was full of mines), then directed a dozen PzIVs to drive through the mined gap in the trees. I gave the tanks pause orders so that they would be less likely to "bunch up" in the gap, though once you get two or three disabled tanks in there, there's no choice but to push them out of the way. I ran the test three times for each speed: Fast, Move, and Hunt. So, nine runs total, with 12 tanks per run. Then I just averaged the number of tanks that were immobilized, knocked out, or abandoned for each respective movement order.

There are a ton of variables that I didn't test, simply because it would take too long. For instance, if the number of damaged vehicles goes up because of time spent in the mine field as I suspect, then you would probably get more kills if the mines were on an uphill, placed in scattered trees, sprinkled with foxholes/wire, etc. If the mined area is on a road, the number of damaged vehicles would likely go down. If you performed the test with a single tank, then reset each time to prevent immobilized units from slowing down the following units, you might get slightly different results, as well.