Losing at the purchase screen.

[Cue-Ball]

POS had a post about this in the AAR section, but I thought it deserved some discussion here, since this is the tactics forum. Despite reading the great advice here I still find myself making the same mistakes when it comes to unit purchases. It appears that I'm a very slow learner, but the lesson will sink in eventually...

A few games ago I was playing a CMBB match against a friend. I was Axis and the setup was Jan of '42, IIRC. During the unit purchase phase I wasn't paying enough attention and bought Panzer IVs with the 75mm L/42 gun (75 short). This gun has about a snowball's chance in hell of penetrating the steeply sloped armor of the Russian T-34 of the time period, even from behind at <100m. Despite using sound tactics, taking side shots, staying hull down, etc., my armor still got waxed, only getting a few kills due to lucky shots or abandonments due to gun hits. Even though they're "older" and "smaller", the 50mm PzIII is far superior. The round is smaller and has less blast, but it is much longer with higher muzzle velocity so the penetration is much, much better. You'll still get some ricochets against T-34s, but at least you'll have a fighting chance at a knockout.

Not two games later I did it again. This time I was playing as the Russians defending against the Germans in mid-'44. It was a pretty low point game with not much cover on my side, so I chose to go AT gun heavy rather than using tanks (which are AP magnets without cover/concealment). I bought the biggest (what I assumed to be the best) AT gun available to the Russians at the time: the 76.2mm. Same size round at the T-34's gun, so it has to be good, right? This thing might as well be a pop gun. Even though the round is decent sized, the muzzle velocity is pathetically low. It can barely take out early model tanks, much less the Tigers and Panthers you're sure to face by '44. As with the first example, it turns out that the smaller round with a longer barrel is much, much better. The Russian 57mm ZiS-2 gun may be somewhat small, but it packs a pretty good punch. And if you're lucky you'll get a couple of tungsten rounds that make short work of Tigers. Panthers are harder due to their sloped frontal armor, but side shots are a piece of cake, and frontals can be had if you wait until they get inside of 300m before revealing yourself. Just keep in mind that these guns cost about as much as a tank, so pick your setup spots carefully and keep them hidden until the enemy is close enough to virtually guarantee a kill on the first shot. Once they're seen, they're high priority targets for tank crews.

By now you'd think that I would have learned. But nooooooooooo! This time I'm playing as the Russians on defense while my friend plays the Germans on attack. I buy a few of the 57mm ZiS-2 AT guns, which is good, but when purchasing armor for my defense I get in a hurry. Instead of purchasing the 85mm T-34 I mistakenly purchase the 76.2mm version. These are fine and dandy in 1942 against PzIIIs, PzIVs and StuGs, but against Tigers and Panthers they are worthless. Frontal shots against Panthers and Tigers just simply won't happen. Unless you get a one in a million shot right down the enemy's barrel, you are not going to get a kill. From the side against a Panther you *might* get lucky if you're real close and you can shoot before his turret traverses. Against a Tiger, even from behind, you are very, very unlikely to get a kill. Heck, I had 9 T-34 76's against 4 Tigers and a Panther. The only kill I got was the Panther, and that was from one of my ZiS-2s. My T-34s all got knocked out without taking out a single enemy tank.

The lesson here is: Take a good hard look at your options for any given timeframe. Consider what you're going up against and buy a gun that's appropriate for the enemy forces. POS has posted some graphics showing the different AFVs and AT guns and their relative penetration values. A quick gander at these can make a world of difference. Once you know what it is you should buy, make sure you actually buy it! It's very easy to think "I'll just buy a platoon of T-34s" and find out you bought the inferior model when the much newer, up-gunned version was two lines down and only a handful of points more expensive.

[Sempai]

Hey Comrade! Only a little note - Tigers are best killed from the side because their lower hull armor is the weakest on them. If You play later war years the common T-34 isn´t so bad as You think. Most of them has Tungsten ammunition on board and can become a real threat for Tigers and Panthers. Also if the T-34s are more experienced they have a better ability to knock out Big Cats due to the better aiming accuracy. So it easier for them to hit the weak points. And the absolut advantage in my eyes is the T-34 have canister ammunition often. That´s the hell for enemy infantry.

Greetings

[Cue-Ball]

Hey Comrade! Only a little note - Tigers are best killed from the side because their lower hull armor is the weakest on them.
Even from the side, Tigers are a hard target for the early T-34/76 (and near impossible for Russian AT guns other than the ZiS-2).


If You play later war years the common T-34 isn´t so bad as You think. Most of them has Tungsten ammunition on board and can become a real threat for Tigers and Panthers.
It's true that the T-34/76 gets tungsten rounds by 1944, but only sometimes and only in very limited quantities. I had 9 T-34/76s in my last game and only 6 of them had tungsten rounds. Of those six, three of them had 2 tungsten rounds, one had 3, one had 4, and two had 5. So, you can't really count on getting tungsten rounds and if you do get them you've only got a handful of shots and need to make them count. Even with tungsten, penetration at 500m is only 94mm. That's not enough to penetrate frontally against a Tiger or Panther (but is enough for a side shot). But once the tungsten is gone you basically have no chance. With AP rounds the ONLY place you can penetrate a Tiger using 76.2mm is the lower side hull. The chances of finding a Tiger that's out in the open, not hull down, and presenting it's side is very slim. The chances of you hitting that vulnerable lower side hull (rather than the upper hull or turret, which are much more common hits) is even slimmer. Sure, it can be done. But it's a lot of what-ifs and luck. If you just buy the 85mm you significantly reduce those factors.


Also if the T-34s are more experienced they have a better ability to knock out Big Cats due to the better aiming accuracy. So it easier for them to hit the weak points.
I haven't had good luck with getting a hit on the first shot from a T-34, even from Veteran crews. Even with the very high velocity tungsten rounds my first shot is usually a miss unless it takes place at well under 500m. If my tank is stationary and the target is stationary the first round is usually a hit. If either one is moving the first round tends to be a miss.


And the absolute advantage in my eyes is the T-34 have canister ammunition often. That´s the hell for enemy infantry.Canister shot is the best weapon ever against infantry (well, except maybe for the huge HE shots of the Brummbar and big IS guns). But you don't get to shoot much infantry when a few Tigers kill all of your tanks by the 5th turn. :-)

[Earl of Grey]

Oh, don't despair, that's happening to me as well. Almost every time. :biggrin1:

I tend to take what's historical accurate for a given timeframe and NOT what will work best in the game. My opponent tends to do take the stuff with a good punch and usually gives me a pretty rough beating. Play a lot of QBs and you'll soon learn what works best under what circumstances. And if you try a QB against me one day you'll probabaly win because I will - again - have picked the wrong stuff...