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Playing real time for a force larger than a squad cannot possibly yeild realistic results.
Combat Mission : Is it a game or a simulation?
- Thread starter Josey Wales
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... but this is a simulation of real life, not real life! What is your definition of "simulation"?
or an easier one, "how long is a piece of string?"
Check Radio Commander and Radio General ...
www.wargamer.com
or an easier one, "how long is a piece of string?"
Check Radio Commander and Radio General ...
The Best War Games of 2019
The year of our lord 2019 has passed, and now we can start looking ahead to what 2020 has in store. Before that though, let's have one last turn at the the table. This article was originally designed to track what computer war game projects we could look forward to...
www.wargamer.com
Umm, I think my point is this, there is a chain of command. Generally, the company commander would receive a set of orders, then with his HQ section, he would frame the plan, then bring in the platoon leaders and then they'd hash it out. Once the plan of action is agreed to, then the company commander assumes that the platoon commanders will carry out the general plan and guess what, the platoon leaders, once they have briefed their squad leaders, assume they will carry out their roles as well. All the planning and execution is based on doctrine and training, and as combat progresses, experience. I agree that the company commander has to manage the situation with the information at hand, but he has supporting players to assist. And a good simulation should model that. So, my question would be this, in CM can you, as the company commander, assign platoons an objective and will the subordinate unit execute your order? If not, if you have to assume the roles of all the platoon leaders, all the squad leaders, because the AI does not model small unit leaders and combat, doesn't reflect tactics based on doctrine and training, then yeah, don't play the game in real-time.
... but this is a simulation of real life, not real life! What is your definition of "simulation"?
or an easier one, "how long is a piece of string?"
Check Radio Commander and Radio General ...
The Best War Games of 2019
The year of our lord 2019 has passed, and now we can start looking ahead to what 2020 has in store. Before that though, let's have one last turn at the the table. This article was originally designed to track what computer war game projects we could look forward to...
I have. But in reading your introduction to the manual you have written for TWT 1943, you state that in that game you can essentially play a company commander, with very few "clicks" ( meaning orders during deployment) and expect the AI to carry out your orders with little or no micromanagement. So I think the Graviteam games, IMO and from my limited experience, do a decent job of real-time simulation. Are they perfect? Nope! But they're are pretty good for simulating battle command at a company commander level.
M
macjim
Guest
Both.
Simulation = the imitation of the operation of a real-world process or system over time. The act of simulating something first requires that a model be developed; this model represents the key characteristics or behaviors of the selected physical or abstract system or process. The model represents the system itself, whereas the simulation represents the operation of the system over time.
Game = activity engaged in for diversion or amusement.
Seems like the difference between the two is competitive balance. So it depends on the scenario and rules employed.
Simulation = the imitation of the operation of a real-world process or system over time. The act of simulating something first requires that a model be developed; this model represents the key characteristics or behaviors of the selected physical or abstract system or process. The model represents the system itself, whereas the simulation represents the operation of the system over time.
Game = activity engaged in for diversion or amusement.
Seems like the difference between the two is competitive balance. So it depends on the scenario and rules employed.
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... but this is a simulation of real life, not real life! What is your definition of "simulation"?
or an easier one, "how long is a piece of string?"
Check Radio Commander and Radio General ...
The Best War Games of 2019
The year of our lord 2019 has passed, and now we can start looking ahead to what 2020 has in store. Before that though, let's have one last turn at the the table. This article was originally designed to track what computer war game projects we could look forward to...
@Lethal2615 is spot on.
Your usual medium or large QB leaves you in charge of a battalion sized force. So when playing CM, you are playing the role of that battalion commander. Some thoughts:
1) A real battalion commander would be sitting next to radios and a map in a Tactical Operations Center (TOC). He could theoretically go to the front, but then he would only see what he could see at ground level from that one spot. He could also dispatch runners to give orders or get status updates, but those runners would take a long time and could get lost or killed.
2) The battalion commander could only give verbal orders (which can be misinterpreted) to units that HAD A RADIO and he generally would follow the chain of command.
3) The battalion commander would have a map, which does not give you a great understanding of the terrain. He would have only grid references (at best--the enemy can listen in on radio comms) on the location of his men and would not fully understand their tactical, casualty, and ammo situations. He would frequently and understandably lose track of exactly where his forces are.
4) The commander would sometimes lose radio contact. He would wonder......is the unit destroyed or are comms just down? Transmissions could be garbled. Multiple messages might come in at the same time and you might miss some of them. People talk over each other on the radio and messages get lost that way too.
5) Casualty evacuation would be way harder. Litter teams would have to go to the front or front line soldiers might have to bring casualties back in.
6) All kinds of friction would occur. Some PFC might mash down the transmit button on a radio and you might be unable to communicate with a rifle company for 10 minutes.
7) By contrast, CM gives you a God View. You know exactly where your subordinate units are and you can see what they see. You know their exact location, casualty status, tactical situation and ammo levels down to the bullet. You can give orders to company commanders and all units down to a corporal in charge of two other men or a sniper team. You even know how "suppressed" they are in real time. You can even simulate making a move and draw targeting lines to see what a unit could see if it moved to a hypotheical spot, for crying out loud.
The list goes on and on. There is no way in hell that CM simulates being a battalion commander. CM can teach tactics fairly well, which is why the UK and NZ forces use it. But it is not truly a simulation.
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Missed this thread until today.
This is a game in almost every aspect.
When you are playing it, you are not mimicking anything you would do in real life as to the situation .
The simulation comes from the game being engineered to reflect realistic ballistic results.
penetration on armor targets being at the top of the list as to much effort given to have realistic output.
At the bottom of the list, small arms fire likely has many aspects that lack realistic outcomes compared to the real thing.
So you view some simulation within the game, but you as the player of the game are not simulating any real component of the battle or could you ever influence a real battle in any similar way as you are able to within the game
This is a game in almost every aspect.
When you are playing it, you are not mimicking anything you would do in real life as to the situation .
The simulation comes from the game being engineered to reflect realistic ballistic results.
penetration on armor targets being at the top of the list as to much effort given to have realistic output.
At the bottom of the list, small arms fire likely has many aspects that lack realistic outcomes compared to the real thing.
So you view some simulation within the game, but you as the player of the game are not simulating any real component of the battle or could you ever influence a real battle in any similar way as you are able to within the game
C
Cathrynn
Guest
I'd classify Combat Mission as a simulation because that's how I like to play it. It's the only game I've come across that let's me simulate commanding a reinforced battalion, partly because of the WEGO system.
I think it's a bit of a red herring to ask if it's a simulation or a game.
Because "simulation" refers to what it is - does it simulate reality? If so, how well? And "game" refers to how it's being used. Do you play it for fun? Or do you use it as a training tool?
You can use even a basic game as a rough simulation of a real event. And even if you had a perfect simulation, you could still play it as a game.
I'm reminded of a conversation I had with @MOS:96B2P about how real-life policemen will use a modified version of the game Grand Theft Auto to play/simulate responding to various events.
Because "simulation" refers to what it is - does it simulate reality? If so, how well? And "game" refers to how it's being used. Do you play it for fun? Or do you use it as a training tool?
You can use even a basic game as a rough simulation of a real event. And even if you had a perfect simulation, you could still play it as a game.
I'm reminded of a conversation I had with @MOS:96B2P about how real-life policemen will use a modified version of the game Grand Theft Auto to play/simulate responding to various events.
L
lsailer
Guest
Could be both.
A "simulation" can be judged on how accurate it is and how truthful to whatever it is trying to simulate.
A "game" can be judged on how enjoyable it is and how fair to all players.
Also, these dimensions can vary from player to player. For example, some people get "enjoyment" from more simulation accuracy. Some people get more enjoyment from finding the perfect hulldown HMG keyhole position on a map.
A "simulation" can be judged on how accurate it is and how truthful to whatever it is trying to simulate.
A "game" can be judged on how enjoyable it is and how fair to all players.
Also, these dimensions can vary from player to player. For example, some people get "enjoyment" from more simulation accuracy. Some people get more enjoyment from finding the perfect hulldown HMG keyhole position on a map.