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Fact..Pin back your lug Holes

If one believed that evolution could happen. I prefer a God of the universe creating man from dust it is easier to believe.
 
I've read evolution books but they're full of holes, missing links, guesswork and hunches.
Creatures are far too complex and perfect to have evolved totally by random evolution, they needed a helping hand, that's why I share McCain's view-
"I believe in evolution, but when I hike the Grand Canyon at sunset I see the hand of God there also"- Sen. John McCain
 
<P>Who's to say evolution isn't God's handiwork?</P>
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<P>Keep in mind that Evolution is still a theory. A theory with supporting evidence, but yes, still with holes.</P>
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<P>As for books on evolution having holes, so do theological texts, including the Bible. Both were written by men, with our without divine inspiration. Man is imperfect, ergo, so are his creations.</P>
 
1- As I always say- "God wrote the Evolution/Creation Program then snapped his fingers to start it, THAT was the Big Bang"..;)

2- Yes, the Theory of Evolution is just a theory, yet they're pushing it as fact!

3- Most of the Bible is eyewitness accounts, just like books such as Guderians 'Panzer Leader' or Schwarzkopf's 'It Doesn't Take a Hero', no reason to doubt them..;)
 
<P>I believe there are many reasons to doubt. Even more current accounts. All eyewitness accounts are subjective. They may be truthful, but not always factual.</P>
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<P>Biblical accounts were primarily oral traditions and recountings. Passed on from generation to generation. I cannot believe changes occurred over time in those recountings. It is just man's nature. Even when it came to the written word, translations and transcriptions are never perfect. There are disputed and undisputed researches on the Bible that indicate there were sections of the Bible either never included, or that were removed. I do not know if is factual that this is the case, but I believe it is a truth. We have a long history of religious leaders, and lay, that make changes to texts to support their own views and/or what they believe others should believe.</P>
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<P>As for the original accounts that make up the Bible, there are events, such as Genesis, that had no or few&nbsp;eyewitnesses to tell the story. Did it take 6 days? I don't know. Did God create the universe over several billion years? Could be. God gave us free will, intelligence and an inquiring mind. What's to say he didn't give us those things so that we could find out how things worked, even if we can't answer why? We could use Science to answer tha hows, and Faith to answer the whys. I do not see why they can't both exist hand in hand.</P>
 
POS what you say about "them" pushing it as fact, if by "them" you mean scientists then you need to bare this in mind. And scientists themselves are to blame for not publicising this point

One of the fundamental principles of science, is to know we don't know everything, otherwise we wouldn't need science anymore. When Scientists say something is a fact, they mean it is the best proven explanation for something given current evidence, if comprehensive scientific evidence that disproves evolution comes to light, then scientists will (all be it reluctantly, scientists are human too and can get stuck in their own beliefs) accept the new theory
 
iron mike usmc said:
<P>As for the original accounts that make up the Bible, there are events, such as Genesis, that had no or few&nbsp;eyewitnesses to tell the story. Did it take 6 days? I don't know. Did God create the universe over several billion years? Could be. God gave us free will, intelligence and an inquiring mind. What's to say he didn't give us those things so that we could find out how things worked, even if we can't answer why? We could use Science to answer tha hows, and Faith to answer the whys. I do not see why they can't both exist hand in hand.</P>
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I've often had a little philosophical thought (i'm agnostic btw), that the earth and the laws of all science could have been put in place by a divine creator as a test of faith, or god could just be twisted and wanted to confuse the hell out of us.

Personally, when it comes to all creation explanations (scientific and science), they all sound equally as unlikely lol
 
Jonny said:
I've often had a little philosophical thought (i'm agnostic btw), that the earth and the laws of all science could have been put in place by a divine creator as a test of faith, or god could just be twisted and wanted to confuse the hell out of us.<BR><BR>Personally, when it comes to all creation explanations (scientific and science), they all sound equally as unlikely lol
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<BR><BR>It is the test of faith that bothers me the most. Why is a test of faith required?
 
Iron Mike USMC quote-Biblical accounts were primarily oral traditions and recountings. Passed on from generation to generation.

POS reply- But Jesus brought a whole new teaching and people quickly realised the guy rocked- "Jesus saved you from the empty way of life handed you by your forefathers......The covenant of Jesus is superior to the old one"-(1 Pet 1:18/ Heb 8:6-13)



Iron Mike USMC quote- There are disputed and undisputed researches on the Bible that indicate there were sections of the Bible either never included, or that were removed.
We have a long history of religious leaders, and lay, that make changes to texts to support their own views and/or what they believe others should believe.

POS reply- 66 separate books make up the bible, so the compilers had to draw the line somewhere to avoid manuscripts that simply repeated what the others already said.
As for religious control freak leaders manipulating things, Jesus said they're easy to spot because they're like trees that produce rotten fruit.(Matt 7:15-20)



Iron Mike USMC quote- As for the original accounts that make up the Bible, there are events, such as Genesis, that had no or few eyewitnesses to tell the story. Did it take 6 days? I don't know. Did God create the universe over several billion years? Could be.

POS reply- No modern christian takes the bible absolutely literally because much of it is a mix of metaphor and analogy and our weak human minds can never see the Big Picture just as Jesus said-"You hardly believe me when I tell you earthly things,so how would you believe me if I told you heavenly things?" (John 3:12)
For example God can fast forward, stop and even reverse time at will- "Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down" (Isaiah 38:8 ), "With God a thousand years are as one day" (2 Pet 3:8 )



Iron Mike USMC quote- God gave us free will, intelligence and an inquiring mind. What's to say he didn't give us those things so that we could find out how things worked, even if we can't answer why? We could use Science to answer tha hows, and Faith to answer the whys. I do not see why they can't both exist hand in hand.

POS reply- Yes, I don't know why people like Richard Dawkins think christians are anti-science,for example I got College of Preceptors exam passes in Science I and II myself.
 
Iron Mike USMC quote- It is the test of faith that bothers me the most. Why is a test of faith required?

The only test that matters is say to ourselves "Hey this Jesus dood is kool, i could hang with him no problem"
But if we say "Nah, don't like him, i'll string with Mohammed/ Buddha/ Krishna/ Hanuman the monkey god etc etc", we flunk the test.

ANOTHER YARD
Ben Cross in Chariots of Fire sat sulking after being beaten in a race for the first time ever by a few feet.
Then up comes coach Ian Holm and says "I can give you another yard"..
The rest is history, under Holms expert coaching, Cross goes on to win an Olympic gold.
Likewise Jesus is the coach we all need to get us through the pearly gates, but atheists and nonchristians reject him outright and get left trailing behind..
"Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize"-(1 Cor 9:24)

another-yard.jpg
 
<P>In all seriousness, with no intention to denegrate beliefs, but to have an intellectual and honest discussion...</P>
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PoorOldSpike said:
<I>Iron Mike USMC quote-Biblical accounts were primarily oral traditions and recountings. Passed on from generation to generation</I>.</P>
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<P>POS reply- But Jesus brought a whole new teaching and people quickly realised the guy rocked- "Jesus saved you from the empty way of life handed you by your forefathers......The covenant of Jesus is superior to the old one"-(1 Pet 1:18/ Heb 8:6-13)
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</P>
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<P>&nbsp;What was wrong the the old covenant? I have always been intrigued and amazed in the differences between the Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament God seemed, at times, capricious and petty. The New Testament God is quite different.</P>
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PoorOldSpike said:
<EM>Iron Mike USMC quote- There are disputed and undisputed researches on the Bible that indicate there were sections of the Bible either never included, or that were removed. </EM></P>
<P><I>We have a long history of religious leaders, and lay, that make changes to texts to support their own views and/or what they believe others should believe.</I></P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>POS reply- 66 separate books make up the bible, so the compilers had to draw the line somewhere to avoid manuscripts that simply repeated what the others already said.</P>
<P>As for religious control freak leaders manipulating things, Jesus said they're easy to spot because they're like trees that produce rotten fruit.(Matt 7:15-20)
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</P>
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<P>&nbsp;Why? What difference would the length of the Bible be? Where are those manuscripts? Why aren't they included in our religious education and practices?</P>
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<P>As for religious control freaks, we do not always recognize them, until too late. I do not believe they are easy to spot. SOme are, but not as a rule.</P>
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PoorOldSpike said:
<EM>Iron Mike USMC quote- As for the original accounts that make up the Bible, there are events, such as Genesis, that had no or few eyewitnesses to tell the story. Did it take 6 days? I don't know. Did God create the universe over several billion years? Could be.</EM></P>
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<P>POS reply- No modern christian takes the bible absolutely literally because much of it is a mix of metaphor and analogy and our weak human minds can never see the Big Picture just as Jesus said-"You hardly believe me when I tell you earthly things,so how would you believe me if I told you heavenly things?" (John 3:12)</P>
<P>For example God can fast forward, stop and even reverse time at will- "Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down" (Isaiah 38:8 ), "With God a thousand years are as one day" (2 Pet 3:8 )
Click to expand...
</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Maybe, maybe not. I believe the Bible to be a simple way to teach complex things to simple people. Modern Christians may not take the Bible literally, but it seems to me they will defend its veracity to anyone who might question it. Can;t have it both ways.</P>
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PoorOldSpike said:
<EM>Iron Mike USMC quote- God gave us free will, intelligence and an inquiring mind. What's to say he didn't give us those things so that we could find out how things worked, even if we can't answer why? We could use Science to answer tha hows, and Faith to answer the whys. I do not see why they can't both exist hand in hand</EM>.</P>
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<P>POS reply- Yes, I don't know why people like Richard Dawkins think christians are anti-science
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</P>
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<P>He has a point. Most Christians I know, though they enjoy the benefits of science,&nbsp;will denounce any attempts by science to explain anything that contradicts the Bible. I personally do not believe the Christian (read Catholic) Church is doing anything serious to bring the two sides together. If they are, I do not see it being done in my local churches.</P>
 
Iron Mike USMC quote- What was wrong the the old covenant? I have always been intrigued and amazed in the differences between the Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament God seemed, at times, capricious and petty. The New Testament God is quite different.


SCHOOLS OUT FOREVER
People wonder why the Old Testament was so harsh. The answer is that God has never changed, but the way he had to package himself to get his message across HAS changed, he had to talk in harsh primitive OT terms to earlier harsh primitive peoples in their own "language" like a strict headteacher to get their attention.
"The law brought us to Christ like a schoolmaster,but now through Christ we are not under that schoolmaster" (Gal 3:22-25)

(Likewise, when Ryker in Star Trek joined Klingon vessel Pagh on an exchange visit as 1st Officer he had to punch and throw stroppy Klingon 2nd Officer Klag across the bridge to get the attention and respect of him and the rest of the crew )

Then when God felt the time was right to package himself in a softer way to more advanced peoples, he gave us Jesus who came not to abolish the OT wholesale, but to show us how to apply its rules with enlightened goodnatured commonsense.

Jesus said - "It was said 'eye for eye,tooth for tooth' but I say turn the other cheek" (Matt 5:38/39)
And people quickly realised - "The covenant of Jesus is superior to the old one" (Heb 8:6-7)
Remember, Jesus saves, not the OT ;)

Right Klag?

"Grrrr..."
klagA.jpg
 
POS quote- 66 separate books make up the bible, so the compilers had to draw the line somewhere to avoid manuscripts that simply repeated what the others already said.

Iron Mike USMC reply- Why? What difference would the length of the Bible be? Where are those manuscripts? Why aren't they included in our religious education and practices?

POS reply- Bootie said he's going to put the very best high-quality CM mods in FGM for download, he's quite rightly not going to bother bringing over truckloads of old outdated stuff. Same when they were compiling the Bible, they didn't want to clutter it up with repetitive stuff, so they rightly said "Let's give punters only the very best".
Nevertheless, they were flexible enough to give us not one gospel but four, written by people with impeccable qualifications-
Gospel-writers Matthew and John were disciples, gospel-writer Mark was a mate of Jesus's right-hand man Peter, and gospel-writer Luke was a mate of Paul.
 
Iron Mike USMC quote-As for religious control freaks, we do not always recognize them, until too late. I do not believe they are easy to spot. Some are, but not as a rule.

POS reply-Yes some are very good at operating in stealth mode under our radar but i find they always blow their cover sooner or later with something they let slip.
Organised Religion is full of such phoney christians, but they can't get under God's radar..:)

Jesus said:-"Not all who call me "Lord,Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. Then I'll tell them plainly, I never knew you, get away from me" (Matt 7:21-23)
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves" (Matt 7:15-20)
"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.." (2 Cor 11:13/14)
"Ungodly men have slipped in among you" (Jude 4)
 
IronMike USMC as you know I am fairly strict in my beliefs of God the Father, God the Son and God The Holy Spirit. I believe the bible is God's inspired word from cover to cover. I know there were books that were rejected from the Christian Bible as we know it. they were; Gnostic Gospels, Dead sea Scrolls, Visionary Wisdom texts, Christian Apocrypha, Jewish Pseudepigrapha, and the kabbalah. Many of these books were taken out of the running due to heritical teachings and /or know to be fakes etc. The list is long and complicated at times. By the way i have read most of them and have a copy in hand thicker then my bible.
The point is the bible is the book the many scolars with kean eyes have complied and I believe by guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Bible is quite to the point on many issues. The bible is inspired by god and may only truely be interpreted by those who have excepted jesus christ as the messiah and redeamer of the world. The one would be filled with the Holy Spirit and able to rightly interpret the bible. Any one can read english can understand the black and white words but without the Spirit one would not get the deeper meaning of texts etc.
So i believe in a literal creation story of the Old testament, with Adam and Eve etc. I believe this is what Jesus taught and Paul the apsotle also....if I was to say that creation did not happen as in the OT then they would of lied and a spiders web unravels, faith is nothing. I need a base of structure to hold onto and a starting line of where I believe and why.
 
Iron Mike USMC quote- Most Christians I know, though they enjoy the benefits of science, will denounce any attempts by science to explain anything that contradicts the Bible.

Sure there will always be stuffed-shirt fundies in Organised Religion, and if they're going to heaven I don't want to go..;)
Nowadays many christians don't bother with O.R. and call themselves 'Free Christians' like i am myself, we don't need O.R. to do our thinking for us, and neither do we need O.R. to be a 'go-between' between us and God..:)

Jesus said:-"You have one teacher, me" (Matt 23:10)
"There is one mediator between God and men,- the man Jesus Christ" (1 Tim 2:5)
 
I just had a thought, surely no one can claim the bible in english is the exact word of god, as surely it's been translated at least twice and whenever anything is translated, stuff is lost and stuff is added
 
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