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Gun and infantry concealment

H

Hoepner

Guest
So, guys, I try to get familliar with CM 2 and have question about concealment in CMBN.
1. How is yours experience with AT/AP guns? Are they useful or not? In my opinion, they are uselles, as the "hide" command means that only a crew lay down, but the gun is not camouflaged in any way. So its very well visible for the enemy and usually is destroyed by mortars much faster than it can be used - mainly AT guns with armor cover arc are very fastly revealed by enemy infantry...Its a huge change against CM1, where a correctly poitioned gun can win a battle and where is no problem to hide a gun and wait until enemy come to the close range without revealing your position too early...
2. Is it "hide" command together with "cover arc" useful? It seems to me, when you give a hide command, that view of the infantry/crew is very highly reduced...so even they have cover arc, they dont see enemy coming in and they dont start a fire.....

I was thinking, that both matters are maybe just a consequences of the Normandy terrain - boccage is everywhere and that means, that every fight (man or armor) is a close fight usualy in distance of 50-100meters. Do you have experiences with Market Garden or Italy? There shouldnt be such obstacles (boccage) and the view should be much more better. Are the figts usualy for longer range in these addons than in CMBN? And if so, is it possible to succesfully hide a gun in these loger ranges fights?
 
Hoepner

I am sure the 'old hands' will give you much better info than me.

But by way of an observation often we think we have positioned something optimal, but actually from the game engine POV it is in some way off - like using hunt and getting a tank to be hull down is probably better done by the game than if you did it yourself. We will all have seen shots that look impossible due to terrain but happen anyway - I think you just have to roll with the punches. Some you win some you lose.

It is annoying when the ai has a gun you can't spot, whilst your own gun dies within a minute of opening fire.

I will be interested to read the pros comments.

Viel Gluck regardless!
 
Good and bad ... Good on set-up, in cover of woods, hills. Bad if setting up when in play in the game, unless on Vet's or above, on extreme, or fanatic.

Hide, think your find this command should not be used unless you really want those on hide... to really hide... best from what I have read is a small fire arc...
 
Better give em a target armor arc because they will burn through ammo trying to kill infantry with ap rounds.
 
I have found that guns are just fine at being unobserved from a few hundred meters away if you put them in trees or behind bocage, or even a low stone wall. Hell, at 200+ meters I have had tanks remain completely hidden in an orchard while firing.

Once it gets within 30-50m though, people do tend to notice the guns though, especially if you fire. This means that unlike CMx1, you can't just "hide" a gun in the woods and expect to save it for that 50 meter shot.

The increased lethality of light mortars also means that guns are comparatively easier to kill. In CMx1 the 50s/60s/on map 81s did not deliver a particular wallop. You could bombard an ATG until your rounds were out, and it would just emerge post suppression - which in turn meant either waiting a long bit for artillery, risking a vehicle to engage the gun, or clearing it out with infantry. In CMx2, accurate mortar fire will generally kill a point target within a few minutes. Any gun kept close to the front lines will inevitably find many people have LOS to it, and kapow, mortars.
 
I have found too that at guns are very powerful.

Just put behind bocage or hedge and try flank shot: very hard to counter and to discover without tank's losses.

Normandy was not only bocage !

Around caen, there was a lot of open ground: deadly with a lot of high velocity and long range anti-guns.
 
I have mixed experience wit AT guns. Useful or not? It depends. They can be very useful and effective on large maps as they are not easy to spot on distances like 500m and beyond. Behind brushes or the edge of woods AT-guns (especially the smaller ones) will stay hidden for quite a long time and can fire a few rounds at targets without getting spotted. I use them regularly in huge QBs for flank protection. On smaller maps I found them not useful as distances are short and thus they get spotted quite fast. But with a narrow line of fire and greater distances they can be very effective. They get even more effective if you are able to set them up at their final destination during the setup phase. If you don`t move them they benefit from being treated as properly camouflaged. If you move them around never position them in the open. Quite good camouflage comes from brushes and stuff like that. And the only way I use them is a combination of Hide/Armoured covered arc. They will spot big targets like tanks but don`t give themselves away by firing at infantry units. So the answer to one of your questions is yes, they can successfully hide in long range fights (800m +). For example in one game I managed to knock out 2 tanks with a very big 88 properly set up behind a crest behind brushes in CMFI over a distance of 3,2 klicks....Ok normally you wouldn`t find distances that big but I achieved good results with 57mm, 75mm, 76mm PaKs at distances of 800m+.
 
Set them up so they have a narrow, diagonal killing zone. One that will put the hurt on any target that crosses it, yet allow them to remain hidden from other enemy units.

Excellent suggestion.
 
Thx for your replies guys...
Small stone wall is totally useless, as Ive already found out....theres really no cover behind it, my AT gun was spotted and killed immidiatelly
As you said above, distance is crucial...hidden (from the beggining) AT/IG gun behind the hedge in distance ca 200m was revealed immidiately by the infantry. So my opinion is, that its really uselles to buy guns in small/middle sized maps, as they are much smaller than in CM1. Also guns (tank guns as well) seemes to me much more accurate than in CM1, so guns should be probably fired in much more longer distance, as they have a great chance to hit an enemy....
I just have used to the new system. I really liked guns in CM1...and I hopefully will like them also in CM2, but I have to start use them in a different way. Use them for long distance in a large/huge battlefields only is the best start probably...

And one more question about IG. In CM1, they were guite innacurate for longer distance than ca 200m.... Are also infantry guns much more accurate in CM2?
 
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