"Hard Cat Rules v2" A discussion

A Canadian Cat

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An interesting alternative would be to give movement orders to place where the platoon HQ has LOS (Line of Sight).
No. This is to simulate the squad leader making his own decision for the benefit/safety of his squad. This is not something directed by the platoon leader.
 

2Dog

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Bill, would you like to start our Hard Cat Rules game this week or maybe next?
 

2Dog

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Any scouts I send out that are operating independently and don't have C2, I'm going to assume that if they spot something then they will either need to send a runner, or themselves, back to a superior who has C2 with the rest of my group so that the information can be passed on.
 

2Dog

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If I use 4b below to move a squad, can I only do this once ie. plot only two waypoints, at least until their immediate superior has c2 with them to give them movement orders again? So if their superior did not get c2 with them again for say 15 minutes, they'd have to sit in the same spot for that length of time, I can't just keep on using 4b, over and over, every few turns; or is it situation dependent?

4. MOVEMENT

b. Squads, teams, and vehicles NOT IN C2 to their immediate superior
can ONLY plot movement paths with one waypoint (two legs)
 

A Canadian Cat

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Good point. The goal is to represent the squad leader making his now decision to protect the squad but not be as flexible and squads in C2. I never thought beyond that. In some ways you can argue that it kinda defeats the purpose to just keep doing it turn after turn but neither does not allowing them to move again until the Lt comes and gets them.

Personally, I am torn. On the one hand I understand the desire for some restrictions but I don't really feel like it works. If a squad was out of C2, unless they had a specific task that they new required that, they would likely move to get back into C2. So, the rule is mean to restrict complex movement for squads out of C2 but the squad leader has the ability to move his squad.

Perhaps adding a requirement that their movement orders must be to accomplish one of three things
i) accomplish the task they were assigned (to allow movement for squads or teams that are out of C2 on purpose)
ii) withdraw or otherwise reposition for the safety of the squad or team
iii) to rejoin their platoon and get back into C2
 

2Dog

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I don't think any requirements need to be added but I do feel that the wording of 4b should reflect the rules intended purpose.
 

Bil Hardenberger

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Sorry I missed this conversation. Would be interested to hear how the battle (battles) using these rules went or are going.

I don't think any requirements need to be added but I do feel that the wording of 4b should reflect the rules intended purpose.
2Dog, the purpose behind rule 4b is that a Squad Leader (SL) will only give orders within visual range to his squad elements.. "...move to that treeline", etc. So this rule represents squad leader "hip-pocket" orders, simple direct orders to maneuver his teams and is actually how SLs operate in reality.

A Platoon Leader will often give orders on a map to his SLs, thus when the squad is out of C2, the squad should be limited in how it moves. I like the idea about keeping these moves within a certain distance... I would recommend that it be within LOS, so a squad out of C2 can only move as laid out in 4b, but also only to a location within LOS to the SL.

Bil
 

A Canadian Cat

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I would recommend that it be within LOS, so a squad out of C2 can only move as laid out in 4b, but also only to a location within LOS to the SL.
I like it but I think it should say move a point just within or just out of the LOS of the SL. While I agree we don't want them moving five blocks over or through the trees and over the stream. But we do want them to be able to go behind that wall I can see, go into or behind that building I can see or go into the woods I can see there far enough that you have some cover.
 

Bil Hardenberger

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I like it but I think it should say move a point just within or just out of the LOS of the SL. While I agree we don't want them moving five blocks over or through the trees and over the stream. But we do want them to be able to go behind that wall I can see, go into or behind that building I can see or go into the woods I can see there far enough that you have some cover.
That sounds reasonable to a point (see my thoughts below). Thinking about it.. if we are restricting squads out of C2 to movement within the SLs LOS then it doesn't really matter how many movement legs are in the movement plan for each team so 4b will need to be rewritten.

I think its important that the SL does not lose sight of his teams... so while they may move slightly into the trees, it shouldn't be so far that the SL no longer has eyes on them... at that point they become independent. Perhaps, as long as they still have C2, either visual or voice then it would be fine.

Bil
 

A Canadian Cat

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That sounds reasonable to a point (see my thoughts below). Thinking about it.. if we are restricting squads out of C2 to movement within the SLs LOS then it doesn't really matter how many movement legs are in the movement plan for each team so 4b will need to be rewritten.

I think its important that the SL does not lose sight of his teams... so while they may move slightly into the trees, it shouldn't be so far that the SL no longer has eyes on them... at that point they become independent. Perhaps, as long as they still have C2, either visual or voice then it would be fine.
Agreed. I was thinking of a combined squad where the SL is with the men. You are right to consider the wording for the situation where it is separate teams.
 

macjim

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I'm not sure I understand why a player could not use a Fireteam (without a PL) to area fire an AS with a tentative contact.

I can think of lots of situations when the team would have orders to start shooting at suspected enemy, especially when defending.

Comments? Explaination?
 

2Dog

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Sorry I missed this conversation. Would be interested to hear how the battle (battles) using these rules went or are going.



2Dog, the purpose behind rule 4b is that a Squad Leader (SL) will only give orders within visual range to his squad elements.. "...move to that treeline", etc. So this rule represents squad leader "hip-pocket" orders, simple direct orders to maneuver his teams and is actually how SLs operate in reality.

A Platoon Leader will often give orders on a map to his SLs, thus when the squad is out of C2, the squad should be limited in how it moves. I like the idea about keeping these moves within a certain distance... I would recommend that it be within LOS, so a squad out of C2 can only move as laid out in 4b, but also only to a location within LOS to the SL.

Bil
I'm enjoying using these rules, they make the game more fun.

I've stopped using the green and red C2 lights in the bottom left UI panel, except for radio C2, because they don't always give a true reflection of what's happening on the ground: for example I had a platoon leader in the very next square to one of his squads and there was no green C2 link, so I could not issue movement orders. Instead, I'm now using the default target command 'T' to either get a blue or grey line of no more than 25 meters between teams before I consider them to be in voice C2 with each other and issue movement orders.

From never having used the rules before, so from reading 4b for the first time, the wording doesn't explain what Ian and yourself have said here, 4b doesn't say enough to give a new user an understanding of its intended purpose. As an example I thought at first I could only plot one waypoint with regards to 4b, the two legs being the start location and end location (I know now however I can plot two waypoints).
 

A Canadian Cat

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I'm not sure I understand why a player could not use a Fireteam (without a PL) to area fire an AS with a tentative contact.
3c says you can. The squad or team leader absolutely can order his squad or team to fire on known or suspected contacts even if they are out of C2.

The intent of the area fire rules are to make sure a) speculative area fire can only be done using units in C2 as directed by an HQ, b) firing on enemy units known or suspected from the PL leader's point of view requires subordinate units to be in C2 and to yet c) not prevent squad and team leaders from acting sensibly based on their own knowledge.

What we are trying to do is say that you the omniscient player cannot direct squads that are on in C2 with their leaders to area fire on locations where they have no enemy contact information. Platoon leaders absolutely can order squads to fire on location they want fire to be placed but you can only do that if they can actually give said order. At the same time a squad leader should absolutely be able to direct his own teams to fire on locations where they have their own knowledge of the enemy.
 

A Canadian Cat

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From never having used the rules before, so from reading 4b for the first time, the wording doesn't explain what Ian and yourself have said here, 4b doesn't say enough to give a new user an understanding of its intended purpose. As an example I thought at first I could only plot one waypoint with regards to 4b, the two legs being the start location and end location (I know now however I can plot two waypoints).
Yes, I agree. The intent is to prevent units out of C2 from manoeuvring in coordination with the rest of the platoon. Bil initially wanted one movement leg only but I was uncomfortable with that since if you want to control how units choose their path around obstacles one movement leg is not really enough. Heck two is not enough but we struck a compromise. I very much like the discussion we just had about making the restriction not a number of movement legs but a restriction on how far they can go instead.

The movement orders in the game are a combination of the leader's diretives and the choices the guys doing the moving actually have to make. So, I like the idea that the leader can decide where his team will go based on his own situational awareness and to accomplish that the guys actually doing the running can be given directions that will accomplish that even if that takes 4 way points.
 

macjim

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The squad or team leader absolutely can order his squad or team to fire on known or suspected contacts even if they are out of C2.
That makes sense. I had thought that the rules prohibited a fireteam from firing on a noise contact or suspected enemy. The Fireteam might be a three man group, without a SL or PL.

It all depends on the ROE provided for the immediate task. The team may have been unleashed, weapons green, with Intel that there are no friendlies in their assigned cover arc. They might be required to immediately engage any 'potential' contacts, and must not wait to positively identify sounds or movement.
 

2Dog

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I love the roleplay that these rules can give to a battle, they make the game for me. The mirror game that Nathan and I are playing at the moment is taking on a whole new meaning, I'm having to think alot more about what the guys in the European theatre might have done at the time, and why.

Yes, I agree. The intent is to prevent units out of C2 from manoeuvring in coordination with the rest of the platoon. Bil initially wanted one movement leg only but I was uncomfortable with that since if you want to control how units choose their path around obstacles one movement leg is not really enough. Heck two is not enough but we struck a compromise. I very much like the discussion we just had about making the restriction not a number of movement legs but a restriction on how far they can go instead.

The movement orders in the game are a combination of the leader's diretives and the choices the guys doing the moving actually have to make. So, I like the idea that the leader can decide where his team will go based on his own situational awareness and to accomplish that the guys actually doing the running can be given directions that will accomplish that even if that takes 4 way points.
Yes, your right. The number of waypoints should not matter with regards to 4b. What matters is the C2, the communication, the local tactics of the SL and his team in the locally assigned AO. The SL can take up good tactical positions with his team or teams even if C2 has been temporarily lost with platoon.
 
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Nathangun

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In my mirrored battles (the Facade Troop scenario) against @2Dog these rules apply more to the German side.
As the British forces are a Para Recce Bn, were each section is it's own HQ the HardCat rules don't cause much trouble.
It's a different story playing the Germans, starting off with a Kriegsmarine Company with two Sicherung Companies coming in as reinforcements and a SS platoon after them.



As the platoon commanders in the Kriegsmarine don't have radios and the squads are mostly green.
The Kriegsmarine company is accompanied by it's Bn HQ wich has two recon squads under its direct control, however, the recce squads are out of C2. So the first job is to hook up with the HQ.
The company commander doubles as the weapons platoon commander and I'll need to make sure the mortars are in C2.



The Recon squads were given '2 legs' in the movement (with no covered arcs) I know I could have given an unlimited amount as they fall under the Scouting Mission parameters (far to the flank of the main body).



So the HQ unit moves out hook up with the recon squads.




We are a few more turns into the battle, I decided to move the platoons on. Two of the three platoons aren't in C2 as they don't have radios, I felt this was a bit gamey under the rules. I know it isn't apart of the rules, but I feel it needs to be.
My point been that they advanced to occupy an objective, as 2Dog didn't send troops to contest it I decided to move them to the next objective. Maybe a timed delay (1:30 min) to simulate a 'runner' been sent.
As the platoon commander's aren't under C2 (but near the Bn HQ) I moved them, role playing that the Bn HQ gave them orders to do so.

Spotting Enemy units.



At first there was drops of sweat falling from my forehead resisting clicking on spotted units but I got used to it now. So I zoom into the location and try to guess what troop type I'm looking at (HQ unit, rifle section, mortar team etc..) but it isn't always easy (for me).

Artillery

I now hesitate to press the 'confirm' button now when plotting a mission.
The flexible solution, is to have a quick mission has the situation might change.

I always like the rules from the CMPzC H2H Operations campaigns and think they would make a good addition.
Here's a pasted copy.

Off Map Weapon Targeting Rules



These rules restrict off map weapons such as naval guns, rockets, artillery, and mortars. The reason for this is to apply more realism to their area of fire. These rules also reduce the danger that off map weapons become too dominant.

When using off map weapons in a CM battle, only area fire should be permitted when firing high explosive rounds. Area and Linear fire can be used for smoke rounds.

The maximum diameter of the area fire circle / linear fire line should be determined by the amount of guns in the battery, where one gun has an individual area fire circle diameter / linear fire line length of 35m. This figure is based on data about the spread of rounds of a UK 25pdr gun. Therefore, a four gun battery would have a maximum area fire circle diameter / linear fire line of 4 x 35 = 140m. The area fire circle diameter / linear fire line length for naval guns should be 55m per gun.

There should also be a LOS restriction applied to off map weapons, where the amount of guns used in the battery is dependant on the LOS of the spotter. Therefore, in the case of artillery, if the spotter has a LOS that only allows a 70m circle / line to be plotted, only two guns may be used.




Below is a list showing how off map weapons are restricted.



When firing HE, only Area Fire targeting is allowed.



1 x Mortar Tube = 20m diameter Area Fire Circle



1 x Artillery Tube = 35m diameter Area Fire Circle



1 x Rocket Tube = 50m diameter Area Fire Circle





ELIGIBLE GUNS (LOS permitting)



0 / 0 / 0m - 20 / 35 / 50m diameter Area Fire Circle= 1 Mortar / Gun / Launcher



20 / 35 / 50m - 40 / 70 / 100m diameter Area Fire Circle= 2 Mortars / Guns / Launchers



40 / 70 / 100m - 60 / 105 / 150m diameter Area Fire Circle= 3 Mortars / Guns / Launchers



60 / 105 / 150m - 80 / 140 / 200m diameter Area Fire Circle= 4 Mortars / Guns / Launchers





CM SMOKE RULES



All the above values apply to smoke, with the addition of Linear Fire Lines



(All the above values have a tolerance of +/- 10%)



(On Map Mortars can only use Point Targeting)



Some interesting observations.

I was moving two platoons over a bridge, in the screenies below you will see two Plt HQ's right next to each other, but only one was in C2 with the company HQ.
It took me a little while to realize why, one of the Plt HQ was moving.


 
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A Canadian Cat

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We are a few more turns into the battle, I decided to move the platoons on. Two of the three platoons aren't in C2 as they don't have radios, I felt this was a bit gamey under the rules. I know it isn't apart of the rules, but I feel it needs to be.
My point been that they advanced to occupy an objective, as 2Dog didn't send troops to contest it I decided to move them to the next objective. Maybe a timed delay (1:30 min) to simulate a 'runner' been sent.
Let's not get carried away :) . @Bil Hardenberger and a few others have created initiative and recorded orders based spread sheet systems to track changes to plans and who can be redirected with what delay. Etc.

These Hard Cat rules are meant to be simple, use anywhere any time and no record keeping needed. If you want to go heavier into record keeping than by all means break out one of those rule sets. This one we are keeping simple. :)
 
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