"Hard Cat Rules v2" A discussion

WinOrLose

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Does this end up with troops a lot more tightly packed so they stay in C2?

Should troops with higher and lower experience have less or more freedom?
 

Badger73

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@A Canadian Cat why preliminary bombardment OK in attack and assault but not probe?
My two cents is because during WW2, Assaults and Attacks are typically heavily planned days ahead of time. Higher headquarter support units are allocated and special resources dedicated to the Attack/Assault force. Those things take time.

A Probe is more of a hasty attack or a reconnaissance in force against enemy forces discovered during forward movements. They develop too quickly for that kind of operational planning.

[For the record, I also opine that any forces defending against an Assault/Attack should also be allowed plenty of TRP's and pre-planned protective fires but that's a separate argument.]
 

Gunner

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My two cents is because during WW2, Assaults and Attacks are typically heavily planned days ahead of time. Higher headquarter support units are allocated and special resources dedicated to the Attack/Assault force. Those things take time.

A Probe is more of a hasty attack or a reconnaissance in force against enemy forces discovered during forward movements. They develop too quickly for that kind of operational planning.

[For the record, I also opine that any forces defending against an Assault/Attack should also be allowed plenty of TRP's and pre-planned protective fires but that's a separate argument.]

I can understand your point of view about the Probes but in CM I would think that some probes may be covered by off board mortar fire.

And this makes me think of the question of "what is the definition of a Probe in CM"?
In CM, it seems to me, that it is really an attack with objectives that are closer to the jump off point than an Attack or Assault. Since the distance is shorter the attacker is given a smaller ratio of attacker/defender of 1.5 to 1.
It's not even limited to size. A probe could be any size. What if it's a huge probe of a battalion size on a huge map?

It's not like a Probe in CM is just go out and see whats what or knock out a target, come back, and report to HQ what you saw.
I do agree with you Badger that this is what a probe should be.

I suppose you could design a scenario where you just have to touch a VL or destroy an objective or both (which isn't a bad idea by the way) but all the QB Probe maps have Terrain Objectives you need to take and hold.

Also, especially later in the war, I believe American mortar and even 105's could be available and called on very short notice.

In fact, this is a good question for a discussion. I think I'll post this on the general forum and hear what others think.
 

WinOrLose

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[For the record, I also opine that any forces defending against an Assault/Attack should also be allowed plenty of TRP's and pre-planned protective fires but that's a separate argument.]
I agree - one of the first things you would do in a defence is set range markers and arty coordinates.
 

Bil Hardenberger

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As the Badger said, Probes are not determined attacks, their intent is to feel out the enemy and discover information.. so a preparatory artillery barrage would not be conducive to that end, but artillery might be necessary to disengage.

Bil
 

macjim

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A Probe is more of a hasty attack or a reconnaissance in force against enemy forces discovered during forward movements.
I understand that the purpose of a probe is to determine information about the enemy. The action is limited and the goal is to draw a response from the enemy so that he will reveal his positions and assets. It doesn't seem like a preliminary bombardment would encourage soldiers to show themselves. It makes sense to conserve offensive arty in a probe.
 

Bulletpoint

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Also, especially later in the war, I believe American mortar and even 105's could be available and called on very short notice.
That is covered by the regular artillery call-in though. Not pre-planning. I think it takes around 8 minutes to call in 105s - that feels like a lot in the game, but it's actually pretty short notice.

But yes, I agree with you that probes in CM are poorly defined, and the actual things you're asked to do is often exactly the same as in attacks and assaults.

I've opened up a couple of QB maps and looked at the objectives: They use occupy objectives and the exact same zones. So what you're left with is that probes are "hard mode", attacks are "medium" and assaults are "easy mode" attacks. Because the mission type only affects the amount of points the attacker gets. It's a bit of a wasted potential really.
 

A Canadian Cat

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I've opened up a couple of QB maps and looked at the objectives: They use occupy objectives and the exact same zones. So what you're left with is that probes are "hard mode", attacks are "medium" and assaults are "easy mode" attacks. Because the mission type only affects the amount of points the attacker gets. It's a bit of a wasted potential really.
Yep, exactly. Most attacks and assaults the points are so weighted in favour of the attacker (likely as it should be) that they nearly cannot loose. Probe point spreads are close enough that the defender actually has a chance.

So, I view Probes not as the definition we talk about here but an attack that the defender has an actual chance to win :)
 

Bulletpoint

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Most attacks and assaults the points are so weighted in favour of the attacker (likely as it should be) that they nearly cannot loose.
I think the main problem is that the scenario/map designers are not compensating for the points ratio by making the map more defensible.

Probably the way BF intended it was that, in an assault, the attacker gets a big points advantage, but he is then given a more difficult task to accomplish. If the map designer doesn't play along with that concept, it just becomes an easier mission for the attacker.
 
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Nathangun

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Does this end up with troops a lot more tightly packed so they stay in C2?
Yes, communication between squads and plt HQ is essential so the Plt HQ can direct fire.

Should troops with higher and lower experience have less or more freedom
Yes a little. Experienced troops seem to spot better. I have to do more research on that.

Perhaps you should play a battle using these rules and find out for yourself.
 
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