Hell let loose

Concord

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One last thing regarding fire-and-manoeuvre in games like Post Scriptum and Hell Let Loose.

A role that often seems under-utilised is that of the Platoon Leader.
While they can do important things like call in air or artillery support, or even drive ammo to the front, I think there is great potential in them calling out orders to the Squad Leaders, so that the squads act more like a platoon. You don't see it happen very often, but I think it does have potential.
 

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@Concord I've not played either Post Scriptum or Hell Let Loose but I have played ArmA and I agree that the difference between a public server where everyone is run and gun and a dedicated group where the approach is more ordered is like chalk and cheese.

Whilst I understand that cohesion and the standard fire & manoeuvre doctrine breaks down upon contact with defense in depth and that individual initiative is required to overcome these situations, it should be up to SL's & PL's to assess the situation and implement their intent as best as practicable whilst accepting that individuals will use their initiative in the moment. I think this is difficult to do in these games as they stand because of their fast pace, particularly for information to get all the way up to a PL, him to assess it , make a decision and pass it back down,. By the time it's got back to the rifleman the situation has changed so that the order is no longer relevant.

I'd love to watch a vid where I can see the cohesion you talk of in Post Scriptum or Hell let Loose so if you know of any let me know it may help me be less negative towards them. It would be good if these games had the option of a realism mode where the following would apply;

1. No GPS maps - maps are distributed only to certain roles eg PL, SL, designated navigator and nothing is marked on them by default except what you would expect on a map. Individual map holders can mark their own maps and if in close enough range can compare maps.

2. Compass's only distributed to those roles mentioned above with maps.

3. Actions requiring manual dexterity can only be performed whilst still or moving at a very slow walk. You cannot read a map, reload a rifle or get a compass bearing whilst jogging through a woodland trying not to trip over. Also these actions should take much longer in game and require you to stay still (or walk very slowly) whilst the action is performed or at least take much much longer to perform if trying to do it whilst moving at a light jog with a significant percentage chance of dropping that item or tripping.

4. Reduce HUD info to a minimum, e.g. no markers for friendlies, no bearing indicator at the bottom of the screen, no objective markers.

5. A different respawn/reinforcement mechanic where you don't have the trickling of individual troops back to the front (they wouldn't be able to get there anyway if they didn't have a map). Perhaps a longer revival time to reduce the number of respawns, or just having to wait until one of the map holders respawn and then he cobbles together a team and heads out to try and RV with the squad or PL. (I accept I haven't put a lot of thought into this one but perhaps there is a different way than the current system).

This would alter the following;

No longer can you call out a contact like 'Enemy bearing 120' and instantly direct your buddy onto the contact. Instead explaining the location of a contact becomes more like the realistic descriptive minefield it is because you have now taken the stabilisers off ' Contact infantry..... about 200m to the front......by the trees.....errmmm....3rd tree from left... along the low wall....'

Objectives would need to be manually marked on each individuals map and map references regularly made to ensure that the platoon or squad is on track. Poor land navigation by the SL or navigator could mean entire squads getting lost if not paying attention and objectives not being completed.

Finding a safe place to reload, read a map or take a bearing would be standard practice and realistic.

These 5 points would slow the game down a bit for those of us wanting a more realistic experience without getting cold, muddy or actually shot! Perhaps a bit boring for some but I am aware of some ArmA milsim units that try a be as realistic as practical whilst still maintaining moments of action. This system would make netter use of the PL role because it would give him the time to gather the relevant info through contact reports & sitreps from the SL's, asses the situation, make a decision then delegate tasks to the SL's who would carry them out whilst they were still relevant because the pace had been slowed down.
 
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Concord

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In Post Scriptum (and quite possibly HLL) you cannot run and reload or drink from a canteen or fix bayonet.

Here's a vid of my clan [REDeye] 1st Rifles Battalion in action during an event with the Easy Company clan from the US and others (7th Cav). I didn't participate in this particular one, but have attended several.
They usually are specifically designed scenarios, with rules, specific units available, certain goals, and pre-made structures for the defenders. Also certain scripted events occur that change the flavour of the story.
There is an emphasis on realism and command. It is a result of the players in the clans rather than the game design itself.


Here's a small example I found of some basic squad cohesion in HLL:


Here's a pic from my last Post Scriptum event. I'm top right - the medic holding the binoculars. :)

 
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Josey Wales

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@Concord unfortunately I couldn't watch much of the Post Scriptum one due to the voice echo. Is that caused by radio comms or just an issue with the uploaders speakers/talkers mics?

It was hard to discern radio comms from voice chat, it would have been easier if there was some adherence to a radio protocol eg 'Hello one zero this is one one, come in over...' but this only happened on occasion and was too non specific. Radio use in WW2 was typically done from a static position, the game seems too fast paced to allow for proper radio procedures.

I like the idea of not being able to drink from the canteen or fix a bayonet whilst moving, if only this could be applied to reading a map and getting a compass bearing aswell. I saw several occasions where the uploader was jogging and browsing his GPS map at the same time. I'm not having a go at him or the clan, I did it in ArmA all the time but in my opinion it takes away from the experience.

I liked the improvised squad assault in the HHL vid, that's a good example of squad leadership, but could've done away with the blue spots above friendlies heads so that the risk of friendly fire is a real threat and the troops in the squad keep an eye on each other forcing them to have a real situational awareness of where everyone is without a crutch like a blue spot.

I do apologise as I know I am coming across as someone who is just down on these games whilst I know you find them enjoyable and I can understand why you do. I couldn't get enough of ArmA back in the days before Squad and PS and HLL and played in a similar way to the way you do with your clan. In fact I think that's my problem, I played it so much I found every little flaw and annoyance over the years and got deeper and deeper into that elusive search for realism. It's probably why I ended up here playing CM!
 

Concord

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It was probably because when you are squad leader, you get voice chat from your squad, plus the command channel, which is the other squad leaders and the platoon leader (and they can't hear your squad members talking).
In addition, sometimes players will use local voice chat, which you can hear if you are within earshot.

When I have been squad leader, I have tried to 'ameliorate the cacophony' (there's something I have never written before!) by turning down the squad channel and the sound effects.
I turn down the sound effects even more when I am a tank commander - the roar of the engines, machine guns and cannon can drown out everything else!

That's okay, I'm finding the discussion enjoyable - even though I've found myself being an apologist for these games hehe.
You are right on both points - they are flawed, and yet I enjoy them. :)
I'm very tempted by Hell Let Loose at the moment. At the tipping point.
 
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Well I took the plunge into Hell Let Loose and am loving it so far! First time in a Sherman tank I flanked a Panther and KOed him in the side turret. Then racked up a total of 19 infantry kills. Took a lot of fire, turret got damaged (slow rotation, coax MG broke) but main gun still worked. Also track damage (could only move in 1st gear). Tried to limp away back to a repair station but something killed me.

Performance-wise is better than I expected, I got two Geforce 770s in SLI, 16GB RAM, with a i7-4790K CPU. It looks great but still hiccups sometimes with alot of action on screen at once. Will get more optimized as time moves on, but this might be my excuse to buy a new card hehe!

It really does feel like if RO and Squad had a baby this would be it! Maps are still pretty damn big, leans much more to Squads map size then RO. This ones gonna get better and bigger in time for sure, but still good stuff right now!

Still on sale for VIP members over at GMG for 24% off! Its not on sale for Steams summer sale for some reason.
 

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I've given it a bit of a go and I feel it has a lot of the same issues as Squad and Post Scriptum: the player's experience depends entirely on vital game mechanics that are managed by squad leaders of highly variable competence on maps where the force to space ratio is far too low and feedback as to the player's usefulness is basically non-existent.
 

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I've given it a bit of a go and I feel it has a lot of the same issues as Squad and Post Scriptum: the player's experience depends entirely on vital game mechanics that are managed by squad leaders of highly variable competence on maps where the force to space ratio is far too low and feedback as to the player's usefulness is basically non-existent.
Yeah I see you point, but its somewhat to be expected. Lot of new players (like us) who dont know what their doing. For example, I played a class that lets you drop ammo crates, didn't know this until somebody asked me to build one. Theres feedback to the player, I just haven't figured it all out yet hehe! But no kill feed, some like this I personally do not, I like it delayed. But I can live without it, probably is or will be an option for servers.

The tutorials are non-existent, little info to read about the classes. But this kind of thing is fairly normal with a new release early access game.
 
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