Machinegun discussions

[Yoozername]

I note that the same type of MG discussions that occurred for CMx1 are now being discussed again.

It is my opinion that simple testing can be done with just the demo. It is really quite fun actually. I setup a MG42 HMG so that it could fire up a road with hedgerows on both sides. I moved all other German units to the rear out of the picture. I then selected a US platoon of 3 squads and a HQ and walked them up the road. I used hide fore the HMG and a short ranged covered arc to let the US troops get into the kill sack.

I played on WEGO so that the turns could be replayed and analyzed.

The HMG, even though it had a target rich environment for a full turn, only expended 180 rounds. These rounds might also be less since the game might tally rifle rounds in that same ammo expediture. The US platoon was chewed up but some squads rallied even though the HQ was a goner. But that is a seperate issue.

I will run the same test using the LMG from the antitank gun ammo bearers to see how many rounds it gets off. But its my opinion that a HMG, in a situation with many targets that all were within 120 meters, would just go full-on. I would expect it to fire 10-12 round bursts every second and fire full auto initially. Perhaps as many as 50 rounds to get the troops combat ineffective.

The point of my test is to see if the HMG are firing ammunition at a high rate just as they could. As far as what I am seeing; they are not.

People may claim that such an ambush is rare since there was no point scouts, etc. But that is not the point. The game must model weapon deadliness or gaminess gets an open door. Players will not fear running troops in the open since the HMG will be not firing as fast as it can.

I wonder just how slow it would fire if I told it 'target light'?

I think the rate of fire of MGs in general should be related to the number of targets the MGs sees at any given time. Or are in its covered arc?

 

[Yoozername]

Further testing again shows a lack of firing by HMG, and even with LMG, when there is a packed juicy target in thier sights.

I wonder if the game has some limitation as far as really tracking '1:1' the number of rounds flying at any given time? In any case, there is certainly video evidence in regards to HMG firing at a sustained rate under battle conditions.

 

[Wilhelm Mohnke]

I discovered that yesterday, both MG's (light & heavy) shot only in small bursts, no high rate lawnmower as irl and CMx1.

I want my 42's 1200 rounds full auto high rate of fire back.

 

[Yoozername]

I really am wondering if the game could compute '1:1' bullets at 20 per second. If there is a company of Germans firing, either short or long bursts, then the game is resolving where each bullet goes? There must be some limitation.

Edit: I did some quick testing og all sorts of MGs firing at the same time. It seems that they take 'turns' of sorts. This may just be my impression since they fire infrequently but I wonder if the game has some sort of timing arrainged so that all the flying bullets can be 'crunched'. I will do a long range test of MG just area firing so that enemy action is removed from the test. Also, the long range will remove the sidearms to a degree.

 

[Jonny]

This is not a game engine limitation

In CMSF I lined up about 20 M2 .50 cals against a syrian battalion, there were hundreds of rounds flying around and even though it ran a bit sluggish the game could handle it fine.

Machine gun doctrine was to fire in short bursts, long bursts cause recoil which decreases accuracy, and also causes the barrel to overheat which again affects accuracy.

Trust me from many hours spent playing this game I certainly fear running my troops in the open, hell I often take casualties from the MG42 in heavy cover like trees and bocage.

no high rate lawnmower as irl and CMx1.

As far as I recall CMx1 MGs fired in bursts too, in fact I think the overall ROF is quite a bit higher than in CMx1

 

[Wilhelm Mohnke]

ok I agree with you but I have the feeling that mg´s are lacking something wich I dont know what it is yet...

 

[Yoozername]

I disagree with several of those points. They may be true for a 50 cal. HMG but not a water-cooled 1917 or a tripod MG42.

The MG42 on its tripod mount had a buffer spring built into the tripod that let the weapon slide backwards against the spring pressure when firing. The purpose of this was to absorb the initial impulse and keep the barrell of the weapon level with the ground.

For the MG42 on bipod, the bipod actually was hinged and the gunner would put his weight against the weapon and the firing would drive the weapon back. Again, it takes up the initial impulse of firing.

My tests purposes I am setting up squads that represent a target throughout a turn. In other words, I am trying to get the MG's to use the maximum rate of fire they would put out. Doctrine would not be consideration.

 

[Yoozername]

[video=youtube_share;wa9nl9jIni4]http://youtu.be/wa9nl9jIni4[/video]
This video shows the correct way to fire a bipod MG42. There are many bad videos out there of 'civvies' doing it incorrectly.

Note the short bursts but the ability to recover and followup with another burst. The weapon is not out of control and if he were firing at troops in a moving posture, he would be very accurate.

 

[Yoozername]

http://youtu.be/B57dW3A-DT0

Another video demonstrating assault fire technique.

The video below shows the buffer-spring action very well. The sHMG42 could fire repeated bursts or longer bursts with the barrell heat and changeout being the main consideration.

[video=youtube_share;AwW31u6wYvE]http://youtu.be/AwW31u6wYvE[/video]

 

[Wilhelm Mohnke]

nice vids, well I hope someone finds whats going on with mg's as I insist theres something lacking in them.

 

[Facman]

Undoubtedly the IG gunners are remembering the training their NCOs gave them or there is an NCO nearby. Good lads.

 

[Yoozername]

I did a test with area fire and a HMG42 firing at some close empty space. The ammo went down 280 rounds which isn't bad but that includes the riflemen. The number of bursts was something in the low 40's also. It was a veteran crew.

 

[Yoozername]

As far as how the game handles MG fire:
For a turn based game, it would just mean the game would take longer to 'crunch' the turn. But for 'Real-Time' battles, the issue would come up. If you had 20 MG42s all opening up in a ambush type situation, the game would have to track 100's of bullets a second.

The game must have internal timers or resolution of sorts. For a MG42 firing at 1200 rpm, the bursts are occurring at 20 a second. So 1/20th a second is certainly not the resolution. It is probably an order of magnitude or greater than that.