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QOTD #8 - Impact of upgunning the M4 Sherman to 76mm?

I think it made the Sherman more dangerous against Stugs and PZIVs. Against Tigers and Panthers it was probably close to irrelevant.

But I am betting that for every tank or tank destroyer that Shermans tanks engaged, they probably engaged 4 PAKs or infantry strongpoints with Schreks/Fausts.

Everyone vastly overrates tank vs tank (the Germans didn't have that many AFVs on the Western Front) combat and vastly underrates the amazing job the Shermans did against infantry.

The thing that I cannot figure out......the US claimed that it could not get a 90mm cannon to fit on the Sherman. But the Israeli's shoe horned a 105mm gun inside the Sherman. I am guessing that the 105mm is much bigger, but who knows?

A 90mm armed Sherman would have been very effective in all roles.
 
But the Israeli's shoe horned a 105mm gun inside the Sherman.

For those interested (me)

800px-M51-Isherman-latrun-1.jpg
 
Was the 76.2mm of the Sherman equal to the Russian 76.2mm, in so far as tank killing (armor penetration)?
 
The thing that I cannot figure out......the US claimed that it could not get a 90mm cannon to fit on the Sherman...

But the US did field a Sherman with a 90mm gun- it was called the M36B1 tank destroyer, which married the M36 Jackson turret and gun to a Sherman hull. I have found at least 2 Tank Destroyer battalions listed on tankdestroyer.net that received the -B1's in February 1945. Technically it's apples and oranges, but it is a Sherman with a 90mm gun called a tank destroyer.
 
But the US did field a Sherman with a 90mm gun- it was called the M36B1 tank destroyer, which married the M36 Jackson turret and gun to a Sherman hull. I have found at least 2 Tank Destroyer battalions listed on tankdestroyer.net that received the -B1's in February 1945. Technically it's apples and oranges, but it is a Sherman with a 90mm gun called a tank destroyer.

Very true, although that turret is not armored like a Sherman turret and obviously has an open top.
 
Very true, although that turret is not armored like a Sherman turret and obviously has an open top.

The top cover was generally added in the field if the facility existed to do so. The turret was triangular with the narrow end behind a thick mantlet. The m36, M26B1, and M36B2 were deployed in early 1945. The gun was welcomed, but TD crews did not like the fact they were gasoline powered and prone to catching fire when hit, unlike the diesel-powered M10.
 
I'd say that sherman crews would have been quite happy for having something to properly deal with the "tiger fear", just my two cents.
 
Was the 76.2mm of the Sherman equal to the Russian 76.2mm, in so far as tank killing (armor penetration)?

No, the US gun was significantly better. At least according to this online calculator.


You can set up a scenario using a Tiger for example as the target and then compare the effect of various guns.

Tiger I is immune to the Russian 76mm from the front, but the US gun has a chance out to about 500 metres.

However, in CM, we all know that one of the first shots will knock out the Tiger's gun, and then that's that.
 
No, the US gun was significantly better. At least according to this online calculator.


You can set up a scenario using a Tiger for example as the target and then compare the effect of various guns.

Tiger I is immune to the Russian 76mm from the front, but the US gun has a chance out to about 500 metres.

However, in CM, we all know that one of the first shots will knock out the Tiger's gun, and then that's that.

My Panther's have that problem as well. Just ask @Runround
 
The story of the completely 180-degree different views held by US tank crews in the field and the US Army's Armor Corps leadership regarding the 75mm Sherman's performance against German heavies is a fascinating read. The troops at the front were screaming for better armor and a better gun from almost the moment they landed in Italy and encountered Tigers and Panthers in numbers. The senior leadership insisted the 75mm Sherman was more than adequate of dealing with the German heavies. Also a contributing factor in the M-26 Pershing taking so long to enter production and get into the war -- the senior Armor leadership did not want and even actively resisted plans to mount a 90mm gun in a tank since fighting enemy tanks was the job of the tank destroyer units.

Another related factoid, American crews demanded a 76mm gun with a muzzle brake despite being told by ordnance experts that the gun's performance was not improved by the muzzle brake. Didn't matter, the German tanks that are killing us have muzzle brakes, we want muzzle brakes.
 
@jobu88 I think the truth is a little more nuanced than that.

Nicholas Moran (aka The Chieftain) did a couple of excellent presentations a few years back in which he addressed some of the commonly known, yet incorrect facts to do with the Shermans performance in WWII.


 
All I can relate is my CM gaming experience.

U.S. 76mm is more likely to KO a PZIV or a STUG than the US 75mm. US 75mm is more effective against soft targets. Like @Nemesis pointed out, US76mm is still very inferior in a frontal duel against a Panther or a Tiger. That's all I really need to know about Sherman guns to play CM at the level I play at.

The Sherman was actually a very good tank, and performed the job it was intended to do with excellence.
 
The 75mm Sherman can knock out a Panther frontally at sub 500m... if you hit the turret.

The 76mm can do the same at longer ranges. Up to about 1000m... 1500 if you're lucky.
 
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The 76mm can knock out a Panther frontally at sub 500m... if you hit the turret.

I could be wrong, but feel like Battlefront changed this 2 patches ago in the ".02" series of patches. Before .02.........the US 76mm rarely penetrated Panthers.

Immediately after the .02 patch......I fought a ladder game against a guy who punched many holes in my Panthers. Almost every shot penetrated. Mostly parital penetrations and hits with spalling, but I was very surprised.
 
I could be wrong, but feel like Battlefront changed this 2 patches ago in the ".02" series of patches. Before .02.........the US 76mm rarely penetrated Panthers.

Immediately after the .02 patch......I fought a ladder game against a guy who punched many holes in my Panthers. Almost every shot penetrated. Mostly parital penetrations and hits with spalling, but I was very surprised.

I actually wrote wrong in the thread you quoted.. have updated it now. I believe even the 75mm can take on Panthers frontally in some circumstances.
 
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