Tanks in scattered trees



The three tanks in the right column in open ground are easily visible to the enemy with hit ratings in the 70's.
The column on the left are in scattered trees, and although the tank at the front is easy to see (73) because it's not very deep into the trees, the two behind it are much harder to see because they're much deeper (57 and 36)



Yes mate, the further you're back in cover, the worse you can see out, it also applies to guns and infantry etc, you can't see much if you've got a face full of leaves. And if you go too far back (like the guy at top left) you can't see out at all-



Could you do the first one again but showing the t-34 to PzIV hit % so we can figure out if being in the trees gives you an advantage or if all levels out.

Either that or email me the file so i can do it myself, or i'll just do it myself if you can't be arsed :smile:


Not sure I follow you mate, anyway the first test scenario is long since deleted from my hard drive.
Anyway don't get too bogged down by figures, play CM by gut instinct rather than slide rule..:)


What i mean is if the hit % for the panzer on the first T-34 is 73% and for the second is %57, will the second T-34s hit % to the PzIV be reduced by 16% or more or less? Get me now? I'll do this in a bit with screenshots to clarify lol


I was curious about this myself after playing a game where I *thought* I had an advantage by being in the trees, but was taken out by a tank in open ground. So, I setup the following scenario to test the hit probabilities. Note that I'm using T-34s on the Allied side and a captured T-34 on the Axis side, so there should be no difference in optics, silhouette, etc.

View from the Allied side.

View from the Axis side. Note that four of the five Allied tanks in the trees have a view out and at least *some* probability to hit, while the Axis tank can only see three of the five. At closer ranges or if the Allied tank were moving I think this discrepancy would disappear.

Note that of the three tanks that are in LOS of the Axis, the hit probabilities are exactly the same (45%, 40%, 27%, respectively). So other than the single tank that can't be seen by the Axis side, the chances are equal. Regarding the Allied tank which hasn't been spotted; it only has a 14% chance to hit and it hasn't moved or fired yet which would almost certainly reveal its position. So unless you place a tank in the trees, don't move it until an enemy comes in to sight, and are willing to live with a mere 14% chance to hit, shooting out from the trees doesn't appear to be an advantage at all. Also, being in the trees (as opposed to behind the trees) could also come back to bite you, since now your AFV will be very slow to move while the enemy can quickly reverse or scoot away.


Okay between us all we're doing a good job of fathoming the mysteries of scat trees, so I thought I'd just do this test to throw movement into the equation. I ran it several times and the results were always the same, namely tanks moving through scat trees don't get any kind of a "sneaking up" bonus, because the stationary enemy in open ground will always spot them and start shooting before they spot him.

PIC 1: The setup; 3x vet PzIVH's in scat trees, and 1x vet T-34/76 in the open-

PIC 2: The game begins; the panzers can't see the T-34-

PIC 3: and the T-34 can't see the panzers-

PIC 4: I give the panzers a 'Hunt' order-

PIC 5: about halfway through turn 1 the T-34 spots the moving panzers and opens up; they havent spotted him yet-

PIC 6: about 11 seconds later the panzers (still moving on 'hunt') spot the T-34 which has just fired for the second time-

PIC 7: the panzers auto-stop to return fire and blow him away-

CONCLUSIONS: After analysis of all our tests I think we can assume the following-

a): Static armour in scat trees gets no hit chance bonus because the intervening foliage hampers the accuracy of friend and foe to exactly the same degree.
(However, a static tank very deep within the trees will see an enemy tank in open ground before it sees him, and will therefore get the first shot, albeit at very low hit chance because of the deep foliage. The exact depth at which this occurs is fairly critical and will vary with the changing seasons, visibility conditions, silhouette size, buttoned or unbuttoned etc, so in game terms it's hardly worth trying to find this elusive "I see you but you don't see me" position.)

b):Moving armour suffers a disadvantage when moving through scat trees, because a static enemy tank will always see them before they see him.
(This is realistic, because not only do the movers have foliage to hamper their spotting ability, but the fact they're moving further reduces that ability)


Turn Rate
3-5 pw
2-4 games.
Add to the fact that the armour in the open would technically see the trees getting knocked down or at the least shaking vigorously as enemy armour rumbles through them.