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Ever asked yourself how many combatants can find cover behind a Merkava?
The Merkava Tank
- Thread starter Bootie
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You'll never see that maneuver in CM 
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I stile this of twitter and to be fair... I didnt think they were that big!!!
The tank or the troops?
Here's some dimensions.
Merkava Mk. IV specifications Dimensions (L-W-H) 8.63m (7.45m without gun) x 3.7m x 2.75m(28'3″ (24'4″) x 12'1″ x 9′ ft.in) Total weight, battle ready65 tonsCrew4 (driver, commander, gunner, loader) + 6 troopsPropulsion12-cyl 1500 hp (1120 kW) turbocharged diesel
On the wishlist for sure. Would need this in North Africa / early war. Late war... may want to avoid 'screck magnets.You'll never see that maneuver in CM
On the wishlist for sure. Would need this in North Africa / early war. Late war... may want to avoid 'screck magnets.
It's called "taking kava"
And the longer hull resulting from the additional troop carrier capability. I'm curious to know the doctrine behind that combined tank & apc design and how well that doctrine works on the battlefield.
As a former tank crewman I'm not sure if taking cover next to a tank is really a great idea. The crew of the tank probably have no idea that the squad is there. The driver, gunner and loader certainly won't unless the commander has seen them and passed the information on. The commander may not know that they have moved there unless he has seen them or been messaged by another tank commander in the platoon/troop. In short, a 'Left stick' order from the commander to the driver will result in a messed up squad.
Tanks attract the wrong king of attention, the kind that squishy sacks of water don't fare too well against. On top of that, have you ever stood that close to a 120mm gun firing without ear protection? I have on a training range and I learnt not to do it again!
With regards to cover, in the end I think it's more of a psychological effect than practical.
Tanks attract the wrong king of attention, the kind that squishy sacks of water don't fare too well against. On top of that, have you ever stood that close to a 120mm gun firing without ear protection? I have on a training range and I learnt not to do it again!
With regards to cover, in the end I think it's more of a psychological effect than practical.
@Josey Wales - You and I rode the kinds of steel beasts which didn't double as troop carriers too. (Mine had a driver's T-bar instead of the right/left track levers you mentioned). I only knew about the infantry that were on our radio frequency or talked to me from the rear mounted phone box. As you say, they prefered to keep good distance between them and me. I think the Israeli's follow a different doctrine though. That has me very curious for the reason's you mention.
As an M1A1 tanker, if the weather was even slightly chilly, you had to always assume there was an infantry squad huddled up straight behind you, soaking up the warming goodness of the Gas/Turbine engine exhaust.
@Badger73 yes I can appreciate that there may be a specific doctrine in the Israeli army that I am not aware of that explains the image. If there was it would seem to limit the tanks mobility.
I was trained as a gunner/loader on the Chieftain, then as a full crewman on the Challenger 1. I was one of the first drivers of the Challenger 2 when it came out in the early nineties. What was your steel beast?
I was trained as a gunner/loader on the Chieftain, then as a full crewman on the Challenger 1. I was one of the first drivers of the Challenger 2 when it came out in the early nineties. What was your steel beast?
@Josey Wales, my first was the M60A1, my last the M60A1E3. The 'E3 made me realize how unintended consequences can be game changers. I served first as a tank battalion self-propelled mortar platoon leader because I was the only Infantry Mortar School trained officer in the battalion when newly assigned there, then thirteen months later I became a tank platoon leader, and finally finished as a tank company executive officer in a peace time army from '73 to '77. (And for all ya'll that thought my call-sign value was my birth year, know ye that it was the year I was commissioned a brand new US Army Armor Branch butter bar instead!)
The 'E3 featured the RISE engine, stabilized gunnery, and passive night vision devices. It was during night gunnery on our new model E3 when both my gunner and I lost sight of the first main gun round fired downrange. The muzzle blast washed out our passive night sight pictures. We couldn't verify a target hit nor adjust subsequent rounds. We desperately asked each other, "Did you see where it went?" over the intercom. As we answered each other, "Negative", I thought, 'Oh shit, we're about to flunk this tank table'. Then the driver pipes up, "I saw it sir. On line but it went over targert." With passive night vision devices, the tank driver became the vehicle's best target observer in the dark! That was a huge paradigm shift for me from the days of active infra-red searchlight night gunnery. We then passed that gunnery run with flying colors!
Anyway, it's clear that the Merkava as a combined MBT and fire team APC design has not even been considered by NATO forces with a decade's combat experience in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I do wonder what drives Israeli thinking for it's design and deployment. I know "merkava" means "chariot". I wonder why it has chariot runners.
The 'E3 featured the RISE engine, stabilized gunnery, and passive night vision devices. It was during night gunnery on our new model E3 when both my gunner and I lost sight of the first main gun round fired downrange. The muzzle blast washed out our passive night sight pictures. We couldn't verify a target hit nor adjust subsequent rounds. We desperately asked each other, "Did you see where it went?" over the intercom. As we answered each other, "Negative", I thought, 'Oh shit, we're about to flunk this tank table'. Then the driver pipes up, "I saw it sir. On line but it went over targert." With passive night vision devices, the tank driver became the vehicle's best target observer in the dark! That was a huge paradigm shift for me from the days of active infra-red searchlight night gunnery. We then passed that gunnery run with flying colors!
Anyway, it's clear that the Merkava as a combined MBT and fire team APC design has not even been considered by NATO forces with a decade's combat experience in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I do wonder what drives Israeli thinking for it's design and deployment. I know "merkava" means "chariot". I wonder why it has chariot runners.
@Badger73 ha, I always enjoy a good gunnery story. Gunner was my favourite role followed then by loader. I didn't get much out of being a driver although appreciate some people would think that's the most fun. I found gunnery was more technical and more rewarding. Loading was physically demanding but kept you on your toes.
I was in a cavalry regiment so we were arranged into Troops and Squadrons which would be the equivalent to Platoons and Companies. I was only ever a lowly Trooper which is the equivalent to a Private. As a trooper you don't really get to think tactically, you are just performing the task in hand as one member of a 4 man crew. At the time I didn't see the Army as a career but now I think it would have been interesting to have been trained in Platoon and Company level tactical thinking and procedures like the officers presumably were. At least it may have improved my CM performance!
Ok , re-railing back to the Merkava. By combining two separate functions into one you always run the risk of the new vehicle performing the roles sub par to the original separate entities. However I can't see a weakness in the Merkava that stands out to me. It's faster than the Challenger 2, has similar firepower and armour. So, I am wondering 'what's the catch?'
I was in a cavalry regiment so we were arranged into Troops and Squadrons which would be the equivalent to Platoons and Companies. I was only ever a lowly Trooper which is the equivalent to a Private. As a trooper you don't really get to think tactically, you are just performing the task in hand as one member of a 4 man crew. At the time I didn't see the Army as a career but now I think it would have been interesting to have been trained in Platoon and Company level tactical thinking and procedures like the officers presumably were. At least it may have improved my CM performance!
Ok , re-railing back to the Merkava. By combining two separate functions into one you always run the risk of the new vehicle performing the roles sub par to the original separate entities. However I can't see a weakness in the Merkava that stands out to me. It's faster than the Challenger 2, has similar firepower and armour. So, I am wondering 'what's the catch?'
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If it gets hit you lose a platoon of men inside?
Well a squad and a tank crew in one I suppose.
Okay, I did some quick research to answer my own question.
The passenger compartment holds up to 8 lightly equipped soldiers or 4 fully equipped infantry. It also has a rifle port in the back. It seems unusual to actually use the Merkava as an APC as there's actual APC for that purpose. In reality, the passenger compartment is used to store additional ammo or supplies or an extra loader. This feature is also used for medevac in a highly dangerous combat area as well as for the crew to more effectively evacuate the tank when it is disabled. There's also detachable toilet module that can be placed in the passenger compartment for long operations. This sounds like luxury, but it is for crew survivability as it eliminates the need to get out of the tank during biological emergencies (Other tank's crews carry poop bags).
It seems the design focus is improved urban operations capabilities, enhanced crew survivabity, and better supporting self contained long duration operations.
After watching "The Long Road Home" (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/tv/the-long-road-home/) about Sadr City in 2004, I can see where Merkava's might do better in urban circumstances.
The passenger compartment holds up to 8 lightly equipped soldiers or 4 fully equipped infantry. It also has a rifle port in the back. It seems unusual to actually use the Merkava as an APC as there's actual APC for that purpose. In reality, the passenger compartment is used to store additional ammo or supplies or an extra loader. This feature is also used for medevac in a highly dangerous combat area as well as for the crew to more effectively evacuate the tank when it is disabled. There's also detachable toilet module that can be placed in the passenger compartment for long operations. This sounds like luxury, but it is for crew survivability as it eliminates the need to get out of the tank during biological emergencies (Other tank's crews carry poop bags).
It seems the design focus is improved urban operations capabilities, enhanced crew survivabity, and better supporting self contained long duration operations.
After watching "The Long Road Home" (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/tv/the-long-road-home/) about Sadr City in 2004, I can see where Merkava's might do better in urban circumstances.
Ha! Said armor officer basic training doesn't appear to have helped my CM performance much! Hie ye to my frequent appearances in @Meat Grinder's House of Horrors for multiple proofs. :shocknaz: On the other hand, it's probably raised me from being a horribly awful player to a higher functioning mediocre one!
Still, while I wound up deciding not to pursue a military career, I am a better man directly due to my time spent in uniform.
