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The problem with "no more than 25% tanks per side."

H

Herroberst63

Guest
I see many players have several rules for QB games such as a restriction on numbers of tanks. I feel this puts the Allied player at a disadvantage. The German players select Panthers or Tigers but the Allied player at most can select Sherman 76mm or Sherman Jumbo or AT guns (but these might not be the answer in a meeting engagement). I've seen restrictions on Jumbo's too. Given the well recognized anecdotal WWII story that it took 5 Shermans to do in a Tiger and our own gaming experience trying to take out Panthers or Tigers frontally it seems disadvantageous. "Go to the flanks, young man" you say. Sure, always but only IF terrain permits but then your faced with panzerfaust and panzershrek volleys potentially while the other guy faces paltry 2.75" bazooka fire. So what's a mother to do? It would seem fairer to recognize this historical problem and permit the Allied side a higher percentage of tanks (or air power?) and perhaps a higher number of points in QB to allow for that. Not that I don't enjoy the challenge. What think you?
 
Just don't play with some one that wants to shape the battle field. My opponents have all taught me to choose carefully by kicking my ass when I do dumb things like by all tanks or no tanks. So, my answer to anyone who wants to shape the battle field with percentages is to say what are you afraid of? Are you chicken? :)

OK that's not actually true. I choose not to play them. After all if they are trying set some dumb percentage values they are going to be hard to deal with about other things too. I'm here to have fun not bean count and gripe.

:D
 
I'm here to have fun. I want to use all of the toys available (depending on what has been agreed) but sometimes you want a realistic battle so some rules are needed. The rules will depend on the type of battle you want to fight. Not all battles need equal force points.

Herroberst63 point is true for some battles.

There must be some units in the CM games some players have never used. We need to use them and blow big holes in the battlefield.
 
I don't mean to suggest players are doing it to get an edge. I think they are just trying to have a game they have more fun with. A lot of it depends on the terrain of course so a map preview is a must. But yes there are some players just looking for another win, but they are easy to recognize by the scenario chosen, etc and you can decide as was mentioned above if you want to play it or not as a challenge.

And I agree that using some of the rarer equipment is more fun but the points and rarity need to be way higher to do that.

So I am doing battle with a player who has high ground on his side of the map and he has chosen Tigers, etc for a 7K+ point game. But its also '43 or early '44 so my numbers of T-34/85 are limited. Toe to toe with Tigers on high ground at range... no thank you LOL. But, the rest of the map permits maneuver and there was no restriction on air... so we'll see if my Sturmoviks can whittle down the Tigers (he already mentioned the mere sound of them caused panzers to dash for the woods and infantry to dismount from carriers).
 
The German big tanks are made for long distance engagements. At shorter range they are very expensive for what they do. I've seen Tigers disabled by PIAT to the tracks, and King Tigers being close assaulted and taken out that way.

Set the map selection to automatic - with NO preview. That way, if your opponent takes a lot of tanks, he could find himself in a city fight, or in a forest.. I think this inspires to go for a more balanced force.
 
Agree, it could be set up that way. I do like lots of choices and using stuff one doesn't get to play with much. I like good maps and recommend using the map depot at Scenario Depot III, computer-generated QB maps less good. Interestingly with my high point game where the other player has Tigers my aircraft have attacked without orders as I have been moving my FOs up to direct the strikes. The aircraft dropped a big bomb near one Tiger but I don't think it damaged it. Annoying I cannot direct the strikes and the AI is wasting valuable sorties while taking antiaircraft fire. Sigh. But I underscore the terrain makes the match fair so for this game I am not complaining about the Tigers. I like the challenge.
 
I like good maps and recommend using the map depot at Scenario Depot III, computer-generated QB maps less good.

There are no computer generated maps in this game. But some of them looks like they are, because they have been made in haste by a designer who didn't care too much.

Interestingly with my high point game where the other player has Tigers my aircraft have attacked without orders as I have been moving my FOs up to direct the strikes.

I think this is a feature of CMRT. Planes attack by themselves.
 
Our ladder champ, @WillS, never asks for force restrictions. He merely asks for restrictions on shooting into the attacker's setup zones, and no pre-planned arty for the defender. He wins a lot. I'm currently playing him in a CMBN QB (him British). I took, IIRC, three Panthers and a King Tiger (plus infantry). He has knocked out all my Panthers and immobilized my King Tiger. He is probably going to win.
 
@Meat Grinder. That was 3 Panthers, 1 Tiger I, 1 Tiger II from my count.

@Herroberst63 I fully agree with your assessment about percentage limitations on armor giving an advantage to the German side (in almost all situations). One strategy for helping to overcome the superiority of German armor is to outnumber it. That also comes with a risk, as any force weighted too heavy in one direction will be disadvantaged, as @A Canadian Cat stated. I think the player, not the opponent, should be responsible for their force selection, and the resulting outcome.

The one rule I can see some good in is where the German player has to buy one other fully tracked vehicle, before buying a Tiger/Panther. I understand the frustration of some as to how QB's can become just a destroy the Panther/Tiger fight. I have seen Panthers/Tigers take ungodly number of hits and still be able to function seemingly unaffected. (Meat Grinders King Tiger mentioned above has taken about 40+ hits in my count, immobilized but still able to pick off infantry teams easily at 800+ meters as it is being hit itself. So no negative effect to optics, weapons, crew morale, etc it seems :eek:) The Panthers 0 rarity in purchase makes it a cheap dominant machine. All that being said I think I have only used that rule maybe 2 or 3 times (at others suggestion) in all the games I have played. I find one of the weaknesses of Tigers/Panthers to be that they are many times used as if they are invincible, which they are not.

The only agreement/rule I always put in is my: "No pre-planned arty/air from the defender, and defender will not purposefully target/engage troops in the attackers setup area. Attackers units will leave the setup area before engaging." A good map will render most of that agreement moot, but I find it simple, effective, and not a burden. Gladly abiding by it from either side. I am sure not everyone agrees with that, and that's fine. It's just my way of keeping a good attack/defense game from becoming a meeting engagement mess against the map edge. Not trying to start another discussion on this, or hijack this topic, just merely stating my view.

All that being said I think it's sometimes fun to agree to infantry only games, or games in which medium/heavy armor is not used at all. But that's always with someone else who is eager to play in such a way. And other than the overall "we will buy none of these" agreement, there is no restriction on how or what each person can buy with their allotment of points.

I have played games in which my opponent makes a purchase, or makes moves in a way I think is taking advantage of the games limitations (or lack there of) and knowing it is not a force purchase or move I would make or enjoy. But I have never wanted to make long lists or rules, restrictions, etc because I feel it's just adding limitations based on anecdotal experiences and does not lead to any better game play. I know not everyone who makes long rule lists does it for their advantage, but there are also those who do. I like having the game and players decisions "shape the battlefield" as Canadian Cat put it.
 
I see many players have several rules for QB games such as a restriction on numbers of tanks. I feel this puts the Allied player at a disadvantage. The German players select Panthers or Tigers but the Allied player at most can select Sherman 76mm or Sherman Jumbo or AT guns (but these might not be the answer in a meeting engagement). I've seen restrictions on Jumbo's too. Given the well recognized anecdotal WWII story that it took 5 Shermans to do in a Tiger and our own gaming experience trying to take out Panthers or Tigers frontally it seems disadvantageous. "Go to the flanks, young man" you say. Sure, always but only IF terrain permits but then your faced with panzerfaust and panzershrek volleys potentially while the other guy faces paltry 2.75" bazooka fire. So what's a mother to do? It would seem fairer to recognize this historical problem and permit the Allied side a higher percentage of tanks (or air power?) and perhaps a higher number of points in QB to allow for that. Not that I don't enjoy the challenge. What think you?



As someone who asks for this occassionally in games....I see your point and I think you are correct in that it does put the Allies at a disadvantage. Especially since the Germans can also show up with better AT Guns and better handheld AT Weapons to boot. This gives me something to think about.....

My motivation for putting this in is usually to avoid fighting a horde of Panthers, Tigers and King Tigers and to try to get something like a combined arms battle going. Games are funnest when you have a mix of armor, infantry, and artillery. In an attack / defend.....the attacker can show up with a wildly unbalanced force while the defender has to prepare to defend against anything.

One fix for this overlooked by Battlefront......ALL German tanks should probably have some rarity. Only 8000 Panzer IVs were built and 6000 Panthers and those tanks always have zero rarity versions (and should not). 49,000 Shermans were built.
 
Yeah, in a fight CMRT my two 57mm ATGs are hammering a Panther at 500m but so far haven't driven him off. I'm flanking him now with a Sherman 76mm. That ought to work if the Sherman survives. Agree on rarity for the uber panzers. But, hell, I enjoy most of the games I play regardless win or lose.
 
I guess I feel the cost of KTs, Tigers, and Panthers make them self limiting. Many times I prefer Stugs, Hetzers, etc....especially on the defense, just so I can have a robust infantry force. And the impact of losing a big cat is just brutal to the overall effort. Hell, mine usually get hit in the gun on turn 5.
For me, the best games have a good mix of combined arms. But Herroberst63’s point is interesting. I think many players implement an armor limit with the idea of limiting German advantages....when the exact opposite may occur. I do it to prevent wasting a game slot playing against an armored horde.
 
Another thing to do is to avoid playing meeting engagements. When both players know they need to move into the centre, it quickly becomes a game of who brings the biggest tank.

Me, I never even see panthers and tigers in my PBEMs. Because they are all "tiny", so there's hardly points (and rarity) available for the big tanks.

Tiny battles on a medium, randomly chosen map, Attack/defence missions. That's my personal favourite setup. Keeps forces manageable while still providing room for maneuver and distance considerations.
 
In a recent battle against @Will S, I had a panther v's 4 Shermans and a couple of stuarts light tanks.
First shot from one Will's Shermans knocked out the gun on my panther, I was hoping he didn't realise this.
A few turns later he moved two tanks to my left flank were I was exposed, I move my useless Panther behind a hedgerow to my left flank, Will S pulled back his tanks, that was my only victory in the battle. Whenever my infantry opened fire it was given HE from Shermans.
The moral of the story, don't put all your eggs into one uber tank to win your battles.
 
As someone who asks for this occassionally in games....I see your point and I think you are correct in that it does put the Allies at a disadvantage. Especially since the Germans can also show up with better AT Guns and better handheld AT Weapons to boot. This gives me something to think about.....

My motivation for putting this in is usually to avoid fighting a horde of Panthers, Tigers and King Tigers and to try to get something like a combined arms battle going. Games are funnest when you have a mix of armor, infantry, and artillery. In an attack / defend.....the attacker can show up with a wildly unbalanced force while the defender has to prepare to defend against anything.

One fix for this overlooked by Battlefront......ALL German tanks should probably have some rarity. Only 8000 Panzer IVs were built and 6000 Panthers and those tanks always have zero rarity versions (and should not). 49,000 Shermans were built.
Excellent point! T-34/76 had 35,000 and T-34/85 had 29,000 produced during the war for comparison. https://ww2-weapons.com/russian-arms-production/
 
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