The Relationship between Soft Factors, Morale & Fatigue

Bulletpoint

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#47
I have been thinking more about this test, and what it means for suppression in this game.

I started wondering about this when playing the Scottish Corridor campaign. There's a very interesting mission ("Ten ouf of Ten") where you have to move infantry across an open field without getting shot by a German HMG squad in a distant building.

After playing the mission several times, I got frustrated with my lack of ability to suppress the HMG enough to move safely. I decided to do a bit of testing, and I found out that for a team in a building, I actually needed a full 3 bren gun carriers firing non-stop at the building. I then ceased fire to look at the soft factors, and the enemy team was in fact just regular quality, +0 soft factors, but it was in C2 (distant visual).

Now, I still wonder if it should really need that weight of fire to suppress a team of this quality. And also, I am thinking that the suppression system in this game is mostly believable when playing below the level of regular troops with 0 soft factors. The moment you start going above regulars, and maybe give troops just a single +1 motivation or leadership, they seem to turn really difficult to suppress - and we're still far from talking about "super soldiers" here.

Anyway, just some musings. If you decide to take a closer look at how much fire is actually needed to reliably suppress various positions, I think there would be a lot of interest in what you find.
 

Josey Wales

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#48
@Bulletpoint

Its been a while since I did the testing. Are you able to show that a conscript unit suffers more suppression than an elite unit for a given amount of incoming fire with all other factors being equal? Following on from that, is a conscript unit easier to pin than an elite unit? In fact you can test this for all the soft factors (Leadership, Motivation, C2)

In my testing I don't recall seeing any difference in the amount of suppression from a given amount of incoming fire between different units of differing soft factors. Only the effects on morale and the time to recover from the suppression were noted.
 

Bulletpoint

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#49
@Bulletpoint

Its been a while since I did the testing. Are you able to show that a conscript unit suffers more suppression than an elite unit for a given amount of incoming fire with all other factors being equal? Following on from that, is a conscript unit easier to pin than an elite unit? In fact you can test this for all the soft factors (Leadership, Motivation, C2)

In my testing I don't recall seeing any difference in the amount of suppression from a given amount of incoming fire between different units of differing soft factors. Only the effects on morale and the time to recover from the suppression were noted.
I only tested how much fire it would take to reliably suppress that position - and then I did some more tests with two other +0 regular teams in buildings on a test map.

From my experience, I believe that the suppression meter works as a "tub".. incoming fire adds to the suppression in the tub, and various factors determine how fast the accumulated suppression "flushes" from the tub. The balance between incoming fire and the suppression "drain" determines the unit's behaviour under fire.

I believe the same amount of incoming fire will always add the same amount of suppression points to the tub, but veteran units will flush out those points faster than green troops.

Also, it seems a unit with a full suppression meter is not necessarily suppressed to the max. It will still return fire. But if you pile on even more suppressive fire, the unit will continue to get more and more suppressed, cowering more and more, until you can practically walk up to it and bayonet it without trouble. So the full suppression meter only seems to show the first 0-10 suppression points, out of a maximum potential total of.. 50? 100?

Do you think I am right in this interpretation of how the system works?
 

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#50
In my opinion - yes - I believe your interpretation is a good one. I have no idea how things are coded or if there is a maximum total but I think you way of thinking about it works well.
 

Josey Wales

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#51
Yes your interpretation is correct based on my own observations.

Incoming fire will fill up the 'tub' at a rate dependant on the amount and accuracy of the incoming fire.

Sustaining a casualty fills the tub up very quickly, you will see an instantaneous jump in the suppression indicator when a casualty is sustained.

Leadership and experience determine how quickly the tub empties. I have not looked at exact rates of filling or emptying but the tub tends to empty slower than it fills up, even with well led experienced troops.

Leadership, experience & motivation determine how the fullness of the tub affects morale.

I have noticed Pinned troops still returning fire although at a much lower rate than unsuppressed troops. The only time troops will not return fire is when they are Shaken or Panic'd. So you could make the argument that troops are not 'fully suppressed' until they are Shaken, which means that troops with higher soft factors are harder to get into this state.
 

Bulletpoint

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#52
I have noticed Pinned troops still returning fire although at a much lower rate than unsuppressed troops. The only time troops will not return fire is when they are Shaken or Panic'd. So you could make the argument that troops are not 'fully suppressed' until they are Shaken, which means that troops with higher soft factors are harder to get into this state.
After doing some more testing, I can conclude that a full suppression meter actually does mean maximum suppression. There's no higher "hidden" levels of suppression. 1 Sherman firing both machineguns at a German team produces max suppression after 5 bursts, and that means all five team members are mostly cowering, but take turns popping up briefly to take a look. They do the exact same thing when I have 3 Shermans firing (a total of 6 machineguns).

However, in my test right now, I'm seeing "shaken" troops return fire. So it's not (only) about the morale state of the unit...
 

Bulletpoint

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#53
Another interesting thing I found is that suppressed troops won't fire on an enemy jeep, unless it comes within 30 metres... suppressed troops will fire on enemy infantry in the open from around 100m (sometimes less), but apparently jeep passengers are safe.
 

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#54
Another interesting thing I found is that suppressed troops won't fire on an enemy jeep, unless it comes within 30 metres... suppressed troops will fire on enemy infantry in the open from around 100m (sometimes less), but apparently jeep passengers are safe.
Perhaps it's an algorithm based on threat. Does the same thing happen if the jeep is equipped with an MG?
 

Bulletpoint

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#55
Haven't tested an MG jeep, but in my test, it was the same infantry in the jeep and outside it, so the threat level should have been the same (at least to a human mind - maybe the computer has other ideas)

I used an FO team and ran various tests where I would either dismount and approach the suppressed enemy team on foot, or drive close and dismount.

I found that the FO team could happily sit inside their jeep very close to the enemy, but the moment they dismounted, they would immediately draw fire.
 
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MOS:96B2P

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#56
@Bulletpoint I wonder if this is related to the halftrack situation where AI infantry generally will not fire on a buttoned halftrack. IIRC the AT team will fire at about 150 meters but as long as the HT stays buttoned the rifles, SMGs, & LMGs will hold fire until the HT approaches to under 32 meters. A jeep does not have un-button (Open Up). Possibly a jeep with no MG is treated like a buttoned halftrack. A jeep with a MG (which is always manned as long as 2 or more troops are in the vehicle) is treated the same as an un-buttoned HT with a troop manning the halftracks MG.
 

Bulletpoint

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#57
@Bulletpoint I wonder if this is related to the halftrack situation where AI infantry generally will not fire on a buttoned halftrack. IIRC the AT team will fire at about 150 meters but as long as the HT stays buttoned the rifles, SMGs, & LMGs will hold fire until the HT approaches to under 32 meters. A jeep does not have un-button (Open Up). Possibly a jeep with no MG is treated like a buttoned halftrack. A jeep with a MG (which is always manned as long as 2 or more troops are in the vehicle) is treated the same as an un-buttoned HT with a troop manning the halftracks MG.
I think you are probably right about this. With a buttoned halftrack,. enemy troops will fire when it gets closer than about 30 metres, and I always assume this fire is meant to represent aiming for vision slits or even running up close and spraying fire inside.

More distant halftracks are treated as if the troops inside hunker down behind the armour, even if the game graphics show troops sitting upright.

This becomes even more apparent with the British Bren carrier. When I started playing the British, I thought they would be super vulnerable in their carrier, because they seem to be exposed above the armour. But actually the enemy will never target them.
 
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Bulletpoint

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#58
Here's another question I've been wondering:

If you take out a platoon's leader unit, will the rest of the platoon take a bigger hit to morale than if the same number of troops were killed in other squads?

I always assumed this would be the case, but I actually don't know...
 

Josey Wales

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#59
@Bulletpoint I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that one. It's unlikely that I would do more testing on this subject to delve deeper primarily because my own curiosity has been satisfied and my gameplay adjusted accordingly now that I understand better what is going on under the hood.

If someone does get around to testing this out for themselves then I'd be interested to know the results.
 

Bulletpoint

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#60
@Bulletpoint I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that one. It's unlikely that I would do more testing on this subject to delve deeper primarily because my own curiosity has been satisfied and my gameplay adjusted accordingly now that I understand better what is going on under the hood.

If someone does get around to testing this out for themselves then I'd be interested to know the results.
No problem. Didn't expect you or anybody else to jump to attention to test out my curiosities. Just threw it out there to see if anybody knew.
 
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