This game makes me glad I didnt get assigned as the gunner of a WWII halftrack (I dont really consider this a spoiler - sorry if it crosses a line)
Round Two
- Thread starter SlySniper
- Start date
There is a couple of games getting close to wrapping up and there is a couple of games that have not made the 1/2 way point yet and then the rest are somewhere between those points.
Round 3 will likely start in 4 weeks from now.
Round 3 will likely start in 4 weeks from now.
The attacker generally is the side most players can handle well in the game and finding someone that can play good defence is hard.
but this situation in this battle takes a excellent player as to making good choices on offence or it turns into one ugly situation.
and boy have I seen a lot of that.
So yes, my evil laugh is there, But a few players have impressed me as to how to crack this nut.
but I have to admit, when creating this one. I made the same mistakes many players are making. but I was able to go back and find a way that did work. So I sit back now and watch as you all are learning the same lessons (most the hard way.)
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Well, I’ve just posted the last turn in my battle against @Bleskaceq and have no idea how well or not I’ve done. His German defenders have been dogged and tenacious despite the firepower ranged against him. My list of infantry casualties is horrendous! I’m not looking forward to seeing the final score, that’s for sure.
Another great scenario, @SlySniper. Cheers.
I didn't play very well, probably bad placement of my guns, they didn't see anything. One was spotted (the Americans had Sioux and Apaches to spot my guns in the fog) so I gave away the position of the others when they only saw haflftracks. From the next turn, the 10 plagues of Egypt fell on them. Then I badly positioned my panzerschrek, they were quickly eliminated. @Hilts was careful, his infantry and haftracks preceded his tanks, except at the end, a few tanks advanced unsupported by infantry towards the bridge, my panzerfausts managed to destroy two of them (a little pathfinding problem on the bridge helped me).
After private discussion with my opponent, we concluded that our game was disrupted by a technical problem for which I was responsible. I installed animation mods, I don't remember who the author is: the soldiers remain lying or crouching when they reload their weapons, about ten ".ani" files (folder: "Sdkfz 251d infantry kneel") . I hadn't understood that they were delaying the response time to soldiers' orders. Without mods soldiers react immediately to movement orders, with mods they obey after 15 seconds of waiting. For example for my opponent: once his combat group was out of his halftrack, he had to immediately run to a new position, but he stayed 15 seconds next to his vehicle and was eliminated. On my side: I wanted to invest a house. I put 2 waypoints: one in front of the door so that they can react in case the house is already occupied, and the other inside. They arrived at the gate as planned, but stayed there until a tank spotted them after about ten seconds and decimated them. I deleted these mods created for RT. We did some tests: animation mods, only that kind of mods, mess with the tactical AI. My opponent hadn't installed these mods, but since I was the one who launched the first round, our pbem was disrupted. If he had started the game, the mods wouldn't have worked.
@Hilts probably would have scored better without this problem, I'm sorry.
This long message to warn the gaming community that animation mods are a problem ... drugs too, and cigarettes kill.
After private discussion with my opponent, we concluded that our game was disrupted by a technical problem for which I was responsible. I installed animation mods, I don't remember who the author is: the soldiers remain lying or crouching when they reload their weapons, about ten ".ani" files (folder: "Sdkfz 251d infantry kneel") . I hadn't understood that they were delaying the response time to soldiers' orders. Without mods soldiers react immediately to movement orders, with mods they obey after 15 seconds of waiting. For example for my opponent: once his combat group was out of his halftrack, he had to immediately run to a new position, but he stayed 15 seconds next to his vehicle and was eliminated. On my side: I wanted to invest a house. I put 2 waypoints: one in front of the door so that they can react in case the house is already occupied, and the other inside. They arrived at the gate as planned, but stayed there until a tank spotted them after about ten seconds and decimated them. I deleted these mods created for RT. We did some tests: animation mods, only that kind of mods, mess with the tactical AI. My opponent hadn't installed these mods, but since I was the one who launched the first round, our pbem was disrupted. If he had started the game, the mods wouldn't have worked.
@Hilts probably would have scored better without this problem, I'm sorry.
This long message to warn the gaming community that animation mods are a problem ... drugs too, and cigarettes kill.
Yeah for h2h play animation mods are a nogo. IIRC there is some who affect the position of TCs which only (?) affect the player who installed them so that could be considered 'cheating'. I've never used those / tested it so not 100% on it but better to not play with any of those with PBEMs.
Very interesting thoughts! I never considered it before to be honest.
For example I have the Sherman II 3D fix mod that fixes the the position of the Sherman II tank commander in CMFI.
I have had thought that this fix, which I find really fantastic and I am grateful to have it, fixes only a visuell bug. With that I mean only the graphic representation and it does not change the calculation about if the TC gets hit, or not.
I would be interested to know if this fix does change the chance to hit the TC.
Maybe I will find time to test this setting up a test range up via the scenario editor.
I am not interested in screwing up my H2H matches in any way.
As far as I know it affects only 3 tanks and only in CMFI (?) (Sherman II, Tiger Mid and Firefly). At least for these are mod fixes available.
I did a little scenario to check if changing the position of the tank commander changed the results of enemy fire. In the original game, the commander of the Firefly V, Tiger Mid, and Sherman II remains in the unlocked turret, only their caps barely emerging. With the kohlenklau's mods, the leaders of these tanks are positioned like the others, their heads are visible. Test with the Tiger mid and the Firefly V and control tanks that never needed this mod (Sherman III, IC , Tiger late, Pz IV, etc). In the 2 tests, I positioned enemy machine guns and snipers in houses. Tanks have a firing arc that prevents them from hitting back, they can only lock on.
- With the Kohlenklau's mod which exposes the tank commander like the other tanks, his position in the turret is the same as for the other tank commanders who don't need this mod: the losses are statistically the same for all tank commanders, the tank commander of the Firefly V, Tiger mid, Sherrman 2, is often killed.
- Without the mod, i.e. leaving the game in its original state: the commander of the Tiger, Firefly and Sherman 2 are rarely hit although they are forced to lock like the others when they are taken for target (in my test they are never killed but it would take some more testing to find out if they are invulnerable).
So modifying the "mdr" files is not only visual. Note that these mods don't give an advantage, it's the opposite: tank commanders are more vulnerable with this mod than without. Their vulnerability is equal to the others, so this mod is a relevant readjustment. BF.c will have to fix these issues in an official patch.
Note : in a PBEM the mods work for both opponents, even if only one player has it. So, if there is an advantage over the original game, or a disadvantage, the 2 players will remain equal. The mods are initiated according to the order of initiation of the game. Mods are either on for both, or off for both.
The mod that messed up my PBEM in this tournament is of a different kind than Kohlenklau's mods, it modifies the animation of the soldiers in the "ani" files. In fact it doesn't work. the AI doesn't know how to work with this mod because the animation sequences, the soldier's gestures, are renamed, inverted, mixed = the movement orders are not immediately executed.
Some mods are neutral in their effects, for example a change in the position of the hands and arms of the machine gunner. A tilted head for the gunner of a halftraks to give him a more realistic look. Helmets adjustment.
- With the Kohlenklau's mod which exposes the tank commander like the other tanks, his position in the turret is the same as for the other tank commanders who don't need this mod: the losses are statistically the same for all tank commanders, the tank commander of the Firefly V, Tiger mid, Sherrman 2, is often killed.
- Without the mod, i.e. leaving the game in its original state: the commander of the Tiger, Firefly and Sherman 2 are rarely hit although they are forced to lock like the others when they are taken for target (in my test they are never killed but it would take some more testing to find out if they are invulnerable).
So modifying the "mdr" files is not only visual. Note that these mods don't give an advantage, it's the opposite: tank commanders are more vulnerable with this mod than without. Their vulnerability is equal to the others, so this mod is a relevant readjustment. BF.c will have to fix these issues in an official patch.
Note : in a PBEM the mods work for both opponents, even if only one player has it. So, if there is an advantage over the original game, or a disadvantage, the 2 players will remain equal. The mods are initiated according to the order of initiation of the game. Mods are either on for both, or off for both.
The mod that messed up my PBEM in this tournament is of a different kind than Kohlenklau's mods, it modifies the animation of the soldiers in the "ani" files. In fact it doesn't work. the AI doesn't know how to work with this mod because the animation sequences, the soldier's gestures, are renamed, inverted, mixed = the movement orders are not immediately executed.
Some mods are neutral in their effects, for example a change in the position of the hands and arms of the machine gunner. A tilted head for the gunner of a halftraks to give him a more realistic look. Helmets adjustment.
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Hello @laurent22,
many thanks for testing and detailed explanations!
As far as I know the TC bugs only happens in CMFI in Sherman II, Tiger Mid and Firefly.
I have done yesterday my own tests, because at this time I did not know that you have already tested it.
I can confirm the lack of vulnerability for the TC in Sherman II without the mod.
I tested snipers (Elite) firing on TC (+2 motivation) at 200m for one minute.
Before that both snipers and Tanks for one minute got a short target arc so that at the beginning of the test all tanks are spotted. Tanks remain short target arc to prevent them from firing. All snipers got manual firing order.
The results are very clear: without the fix, Sherman II TC in CMFI could not been hit in my test setting
I did a comparison test with Sherman V tanks.
In my opinion, because of the low sample size (10 snipers x 10 tests =100) the difference between Sherman II (with mod) and Sherman V can be explained with variance.
Screenshot Sherman II with fix
following below without:
looking from the sniper without and with the mod (fix)
I can recommend using this mod, because it fixes the bug of the invulnerable TC to small arms fire. Many thanks to Kohlenklau for providing this mod!
Regarding multiplayer I did not do any testing yet about what happens if only one player uses the mod and if it then makes a difference whom of them sets up the match.
I did not do any testing yet about if the bug affects the spotting capacity of the TC, with that I mean if the TC can spot better with the fix.
I totally agree with @laurent22 that the developers should fix this bug in the next patch.
One thing I am thinking about is that this bug and fix shows, in my humble estimation that the CM game engine is fantastic! The reason is that in my estimation the game does not calculate that the TC has the X percent to get hit under the setting I tested, but rather does actual ballistic calculation and therefore the TC does not get hit by sniper fire if his head is nearly complete covered by steel.
many thanks for testing and detailed explanations!
As far as I know the TC bugs only happens in CMFI in Sherman II, Tiger Mid and Firefly.
I have done yesterday my own tests, because at this time I did not know that you have already tested it.
I can confirm the lack of vulnerability for the TC in Sherman II without the mod.
I tested snipers (Elite) firing on TC (+2 motivation) at 200m for one minute.
Before that both snipers and Tanks for one minute got a short target arc so that at the beginning of the test all tanks are spotted. Tanks remain short target arc to prevent them from firing. All snipers got manual firing order.
The results are very clear: without the fix, Sherman II TC in CMFI could not been hit in my test setting
I did a comparison test with Sherman V tanks.
In my opinion, because of the low sample size (10 snipers x 10 tests =100) the difference between Sherman II (with mod) and Sherman V can be explained with variance.
Screenshot Sherman II with fix
following below without:
looking from the sniper without and with the mod (fix)
I can recommend using this mod, because it fixes the bug of the invulnerable TC to small arms fire. Many thanks to Kohlenklau for providing this mod!
Regarding multiplayer I did not do any testing yet about what happens if only one player uses the mod and if it then makes a difference whom of them sets up the match.
I did not do any testing yet about if the bug affects the spotting capacity of the TC, with that I mean if the TC can spot better with the fix.
I totally agree with @laurent22 that the developers should fix this bug in the next patch.
One thing I am thinking about is that this bug and fix shows, in my humble estimation that the CM game engine is fantastic! The reason is that in my estimation the game does not calculate that the TC has the X percent to get hit under the setting I tested, but rather does actual ballistic calculation and therefore the TC does not get hit by sniper fire if his head is nearly complete covered by steel.
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It would be interesting to know if the mod did indeed make for better spotting by the tank commander.
I'll add in here that in my game against @Friedrich at the moment that my TCs do show up as hunkered down in their cupolas, I don't know if they are invulnerable to sniper fire but they are not invulnerable to small arms fire, two of my TCs have lost their heads to it this game.
I'll make a video to show it, watch this space...
Have you tried using a sniper at an equal level to the TC, or above?
It might be an idea to repeat the test as above with the snipers on the first and second floors of a building and see the results from that.
I'll make a video to show it, watch this space...
Have you tried using a sniper at an equal level to the TC, or above?
It might be an idea to repeat the test as above with the snipers on the first and second floors of a building and see the results from that.
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The discussion about about the CMFI tank commander bug and its fix (mod) is a really good one and I think we can benefit from it finding out what really happens and how to deal with it until BFC will have fixed the TC bug in CMFI.
I have only to admit that I fear that I am hijacking this tournament thread with this off topic. The TC bug is an important question, but maybe this is the wrong thread to discuss it in detail. I am planning to do additional testing and publish the results.
Therefore I suggest that an admin with his administrative power moves the whole TC bug discussion into a separate newly created thread?
Maybe from post #85 onwards?
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Thank you @Stafford for providing the video and your observation!
My suspicion is that in H2H matches only one PC does the calculation which results in creating the replay. Therefore my suspicion is that it depends if there (on this PC) the TC bug fix is installed or not. If my PC does the calculation and produces the replays I assume that the calculation is done with the fix (I use the fix).
My second suspicion is, that you can not see the TC on the fixed position, because your PC while processing the replay data file into visuell data for the monitor lacks the visuell data file the TC fix provides.
Please excuse that my English skills are coming to its limits discussing complicated things. I hope you can still understand what I am trying to say.
For playing single player I think this mod is unproblematic and it improves the game, because it fixes a known bug.
For playing multiplayer the data is at this moment for me still not enough to come to conclusion.
Therefore I am going to do further testing regarding multiplayer consequences. I would like to see the CMFI TC bug fixed also for multiplayer matches, but there could be unintended consequences which do more harm than the fix is helping. I will try to find out, but I have to say that I am just a simple wargamer and not a scientist. I will help to find out as good as I can.
I have only to admit that I fear that I am hijacking this tournament thread with this off topic. The TC bug is an important question, but maybe this is the wrong thread to discuss it in detail. I am planning to do additional testing and publish the results.
Therefore I suggest that an admin with his administrative power moves the whole TC bug discussion into a separate newly created thread?
Maybe from post #85 onwards?
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Thank you @Stafford for providing the video and your observation!
My suspicion is that in H2H matches only one PC does the calculation which results in creating the replay. Therefore my suspicion is that it depends if there (on this PC) the TC bug fix is installed or not. If my PC does the calculation and produces the replays I assume that the calculation is done with the fix (I use the fix).
My second suspicion is, that you can not see the TC on the fixed position, because your PC while processing the replay data file into visuell data for the monitor lacks the visuell data file the TC fix provides.
Please excuse that my English skills are coming to its limits discussing complicated things. I hope you can still understand what I am trying to say.
For playing single player I think this mod is unproblematic and it improves the game, because it fixes a known bug.
For playing multiplayer the data is at this moment for me still not enough to come to conclusion.
Therefore I am going to do further testing regarding multiplayer consequences. I would like to see the CMFI TC bug fixed also for multiplayer matches, but there could be unintended consequences which do more harm than the fix is helping. I will try to find out, but I have to say that I am just a simple wargamer and not a scientist. I will help to find out as good as I can.
Interesting discussion, I agree that the logical thing to expect is that all calculations are made during the 'blue bar calculations' on a single PC. I had read before that such mods only affect one side but that might just be the graphical representation of what happened. That being said, unless BFC has confirmed/denied specifics (they might have I can't remember) I'd like to refrain from hard conclusions.
Also agree that the TC issue in CMFI seems like a bug or is at least not consequent with other titles. It could be 'working as designed' though, I don't remember the specifics of the TC issue I've read before. It is therefore a 'subjective' fix ;-)
Relevant for this thread/tournament my opinion is that it's better to either not use any of these game changing mods or ensure everyone/game uses the same modifications.
I agree that this is a rational advice. Maybe then additional testing is not needed.
One result from the discussion besides other like that the TC vulnerability actual changes, is, that before starting a H2H match it is important to mention if the TC bug fix or other game changing mods are used, or not. And then find an agreement both players will use these mods, or not.
I did not know until yesterday that game changing mods for CM exists. I had thought that the CMFI TC bug fix does only affects visuals until I did the testing with the snipers and the Sherman II, which proves in my estimation that the vulnerability does actually change.
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Correct. There has not been a specific confirmation from BFC. However I test for them and I do know a few things that I think we can use to connect the dots.
1) the vehicle and soldier models are used for hit testing.
2) the blue progress bar is when the turn gets generated - both sides then watch the results
Starting with #1, there are all kinds of modifiers etc but fundamentally if a soldier model is in LOF and gets hit that is the starting point. Based on that the player that is generating the turn file is the one whose models matter. So, if the player generating the turn is using these mods then this should effect the game outcomes.
How we looking re getting games done? No offense, but it doesnt take that long to play this battle in my HUMBLE OPINION.
4 games completed
6 games progressing at a good min. pace and
2 games progressing slowly.
We will be starting round 3 in a few weeks. I expect we will have 10 games completed at that point and the two slower matches will just finish up, when they finish up.
6 games progressing at a good min. pace and
2 games progressing slowly.
We will be starting round 3 in a few weeks. I expect we will have 10 games completed at that point and the two slower matches will just finish up, when they finish up.
If everyone just took 1 hour on the weekend, they could turn around at least 5 (or more) turns if they sit in front of their computers. LOL....I dunno. I am busy with life too, but one turn a week is ridiculous. No one is that busy. Sorry, just venting.
Last turn sent. Just waiting to see the final results.
Quite an ugly battle.
Quite an ugly battle.
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LOL speak for your self. I started a new job and am no longer WFH so that's sever hours per day out of my free time. My weekends are frequently scheduled to be out of town. I actually could play a few turns in a row between 0630 and 0730 most week day mornings. Everyone should be able to sit down in front of their computers for an hour each morning. /s
