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Halftrack Behaviour

K

KuwaitIncubator

Guest
i ve tested CMBN and CMRT. it seems that in CMBN infantry targets half trucks like any other infantry target while in CMRT they will never do it unless they are extremely close or perhaps when halftracks are them with their backs. You can't even target a halftrack. Only way to shoot at the halftrack in CMRT wth infantry is to target somewhere near it and hope Halftruck stays in the position and the gunner gets hit. Any thoughts?
 
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I have just run a few tests and could not confirm what you reported. The behavior seems identical in CMRT and CMBN:
  1. Infantry does not target buttoned up AFVs with small arms on their own volition, even if their weapons are strong enough to hurt the target vehicle
  2. Infantry does target unbuttoned AFVs on their own, trying to take out exposed infantry (e.g., halftrack gunners - see video clip below)
  3. Infantry will accept a target order on a buttoned up AFV but will not open fire unless their weapons are able to at least hurt the target (frontal armor of German halftracks is generally too strong for that)
 
MeatEtr said:
And a side note, when you wanna fire with a HT you gotta unbutton first.
Click to expand...
Actually, I don't agree with this statement. In the video above, the halftracks start out buttoned up and the gunners only go up when they see targets to shoot at. This is what I normally observe, at least with German H/Ts.
Even if you give a Target Area order to a buttoned up H/T, the gunner will stand up automatically to open fire. Once you cancel that order, the gunner will go back inside. The same goes for random targets - when there is no target in sight anymore, the gunner will get back inside. Unlike when you order the vehicle to open up at the start of the turn: then the gunner stays up and exposed even when he has nothing to shoot at. Which is why I think it is better not to order H/Ts to open up (ever).
Whether the gunner actually stands up to engage may (or may not) depend on the crew quality/morale, its awareness of threats around the vehicle, and whether it deems the target to be worth engaging at a given distance - I haven't tested that.
 
Drifter Man said:
Actually, I don't agree with this statement. In the video above, the halftracks start out buttoned up and the gunners only go up when they see targets to shoot at. This is what I normally observe, at least with German H/Ts.
Even if you give a Target Area order to a buttoned up H/T, the gunner will stand up automatically to open fire. Once you cancel that order, the gunner will go back inside. The same goes for random targets - when there is no target in sight anymore, the gunner will get back inside. Unlike when you order the vehicle to open up at the start of the turn: then the gunner stays up and exposed even when he has nothing to shoot at. Which is why I think it is better not to order H/Ts to open up (ever).
Whether the gunner actually stands up to engage may (or may not) depend on the crew quality/morale, its awareness of threats around the vehicle, and whether it deems the target to be worth engaging at a given distance - I haven't tested that.
Click to expand...
There have been occasions when a HT refuses to fire until unbuttoned. I've seen it. This is for manual area targeting.
 
MeatEtr said:
There have been occasions when a HT refuses to fire until unbuttoned. I've seen it. This is for manual area targeting.
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Yeah there are such cases (see my last point), but it's not accurate to say that that when you wanna fire with a HT you gotta unbutton first. Usually it will unbutton and fire on its own, if it can see an exposed target.
 
Drifter Man said:
Yeah there are such cases (see my last point), but it's not accurate to say that that when you wanna fire with a HT you gotta unbutton first. Usually it will unbutton and fire on its own, if it can see an exposed target.
Click to expand...
Again Im not talking about the TacAI spotting the enemy and engaging. Because that happens. This is for manual area fire. Has nothing to do with crew quality/morale. Its this way in all CM games.

 
MeatEtr said:
Again Im not talking about the TacAI spotting the enemy and engaging. Because that happens. This is for manual area fire. Has nothing to do with crew quality/morale. Its this way in all CM games.

Click to expand...
I see now. I did not get it at first because I did my test with German halftracks, which do not need to be manually unbuttoned first to open fire. So, after your post I did more tests with U.S. halftracks (M2A1 to M9A1, including British and Soviet service), German halftracks (including support models with 37mm gun), the French U-304 oddity and M3A1 scout car, in CMBN and CMRT.
Conclusion:

All U.S. made halftracks have to be manually unbuttoned to open fire.
Other vehicles do not have to - they will unbutton automatically and button up again when the target order is canceled.

 
Drifter Man said:
Which is why I think it is better not to order H/Ts to open up (ever).
Click to expand...
Against the computer, it can be a viable tactic to use unbuttoned halftracks as bait at longer ranges to see if any infantry wants to take a shot at them.
 
Drifter Man said:
Unlike when you order the vehicle to open up at the start of the turn: then the gunner stays up and exposed even when he has nothing to shoot at. Which is why I think it is better not to order H/Ts to open up (ever).
Click to expand...
Well it is heavy situational in my games. If enemy fire is to be expected only from the front and the firing distance is at least around 300m I tend to always "open up". I just like the presumably better awareness of the gunner and if he is not targeted by heavy MG or snipers he has only a small chance of being hit because of the gun shield. At least in my games so far normal footsoldiers do not tend to take out the gunner effectively at that range.

If the ht needs to get much closer or is on the move and especially shows a bit of its side (gunner not protected by the shield anymore) , I often order the gunner back in.
 
I like halftracks. They are my favourite vehicle to use, precisely because they are difficult. I remember one H2H game where I was taking a hard beating but managed to turn the game around by making an ambush with a .50 halftrack and knock out a key German armoured car.
 
Bulletpoint said:
I like halftracks. They are my favourite vehicle to use, precisely because they are difficult. I remember one H2H game where I was taking a hard beating but managed to turn the game around by making an ambush with a .50 halftrack and knock out a key German armoured car.
Click to expand...
I don´t had that much luck with american halfracks to be honest. God damn the M2 is a powerful and mean beast but if the gunner is picked off regularily it is no use. :D

So far I used them often for areafire and ambushes as you said. If they are the first ones to spot, they can be devastating for light armor and infantry yes.

But nothing is more heartwarming than seeing the full crew doing a successful mounted assault. :D (the dozens of "not so successful" ones I will not mention ^^)CM Final Blitzkrieg Halftrack.jpg
 
Brille said:
Well it is heavy situational in my games. If enemy fire is to be expected only from the front and the firing distance is at least around 300m I tend to always "open up". I just like the presumably better awareness of the gunner and if he is not targeted by heavy MG or snipers he has only a small chance of being hit because of the gun shield. At least in my games so far normal footsoldiers do not tend to take out the gunner effectively at that range.

If the ht needs to get much closer or is on the move and especially shows a bit of its side (gunner not protected by the shield anymore) , I often order the gunner back in.
Click to expand...
I agree - it may depend on the situation and personal preferences.
However, I am not so sure about the better awareness of the gunner when opened up. I have systematically tested the spotting ability of a few dozen vehicles in CM and found that being opened up/buttoned up has almost no effect for open-topped vehicles (as opposed to fully enclosed vehicles, like tanks, where it makes a massive difference). I did not test the kind of halftracks we are discussing here, though. Actually, the only halftrack I tested was the SU-57 tank destroyer.
https://community.battlefront.com/topic/138227-some-tank-duel-tests-cmbn/page/10/#comments
 
The problem is also that the gun shield doesn't even properly protect the gunner from the front, as half his helmet pokes up over it.

It's one of the biggest mysteries of WW2 for me why the Germans didn't make the shield just a tiny bit bigger.
 
Bulletpoint said:
The problem is also that the gun shield doesn't even properly protect the gunner from the front, as half his helmet pokes up over it.

It's one of the biggest mysteries of WW2 for me why the Germans didn't make the shield just a tiny bit bigger.
Click to expand...
I know what you mean. I have no sources at all and can therefor just make some simple assumptions besides a simple oversight by design. One of which would be, and thats what I believe is the strongest, that the designers had situational awareness in mind. In firing position the gunner would have to raise his head just a little to observe the full battlefield again and could potentially switch to another target faster without changing his stance to much. With a larger shield he would have to leave or change firing positions and would take more time to be on target again.

There was a saying in my conscription time in the german army that burned down so that I remembered it pretty clear: "Wirkung vor Deckung !" (Effect comes before cover)
Little anecdote: On a simulated convoy attack we had to search for firing positions individually. Mine was a rather big hole besides the road and in front a big tree - best cover in this circumstances I thought to myself. My instructor yelled at me "Wirkung vor Deckung, Gefreiter Langer !!!" How would I be able to lay destructive fire at any of these vehicles ? Well... he was right.
That means that the best cover will not accomplish the mission, which was destroying/hold up those vehicles.
So I could imagine that in terms of the Sfkfz 251/1 it was a trade between reasonable cover and fire effectiveness.

And to be honest I never read about any complains that this was a big problem back than. I guess most of the crew casualties were inflicted by bigger calibers, that the armor wasn´t even designed to protect against. (If someone has some reports o this I would be grateful)

In game I would say that the player/the tac ai is sometimes more willing to take risks and shoot at opened up vehicles than it would be in real life. Shooting a head sized object at several hundred meters with just iron sights should be difficult and here it is just 1/2 to 1/4 of a head sized object due to the shield.

Most of the times I´ve lost an MG gunner on these vehicles were due to several mg salvos, and some to rifle fire (presumably sniper or lucky garand shooters). But in contrast to american halftracks the losses were not significant.
 
There are 2 ways to target from a half track. Target with the vehicle or with the individual manning it. Is there a difference in behaviour via unbutton/button. I mean will the American manning pop up on their own like the german?
 
KGBoy said:
There are 2 ways to target from a half track. Target with the vehicle or with the individual manning it. Is there a difference in behaviour via unbutton/button. I mean will the American manning pop up on their own like the german?
Click to expand...

This should be easily testable :)
 
Yes but why when someone else will test it for you? :)
I tried it with an area target order and the answer is a bit complicated. When the order is given to the unit that is carried as passengers, they will only fire if either the vehicle or the carried unit is manually unbuttoned, and they will use their own weapons - not the mounted MG. The vehicle and the carried unit can even have different target orders. Exception: if the vehicle does not have a dedicated gunner, the order of the vehicle takes priority and the carried unit will only fire the mounted MG according to the orders for the vehicle.
This behavior is common for all vehicles I've tried - German and U.S. halftracks and the M3A1 scout car in CMBN and CMRT, but I didn't test all possible combinations of vehicles, carried units and orders, so don't kill me if something else happens in your battle :)
 
It never even occurred to me that it might be possible to give the crew a separate target order and make them not use the MG... I wonder if that is ever useful in practice.
 
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