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Hidden soft factors.

Lethaface said:
Because it is fired at a higher velocity the shell 'walls' needs to be stronger and thus has less grams of explosive inside, at least that's how I understand it.
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I am not sure about shell walls. I do know that both shells have a diameter of 75mm. I also know that the US projectile is LONGER and thus heavier and deadlier to infantry. CMX1 gave the Sherman 75mm a blast value of 52 vs 45 for the Panther 75mm, IIRC.

But the German shell (which combines the case and the projectile) is bigger. The Germans used a lot of powder to drive a smaller shell really fast.

Well known doctrinal differences clear drive different weapons, shells and projectiles.
 
Nemesis said:
I am not sure about shell walls. I do know that both shells have a diameter of 75mm. I also know that the US projectile is LONGER and thus heavier and deadlier to infantry. CMX1 gave the Sherman 75mm a blast value of 52 vs 45 for the Panther 75mm, IIRC.

But the German shell (which combines the case and the projectile) is bigger. The Germans used a lot of powder to drive a smaller shell really fast.

Well known doctrinal differences clear drive different weapons, shells and projectiles.
Click to expand...
I'm no expert on the subject, but once read about how higher velocity projectiles need to be stronger because of the higher pressure / forces that are involved. Everything else equal, that means less room for explosive filler. Which sounded logic :)

Lighter shells obviously also leave less room for explosives.

I looked up the filler for the PzIV gun KwK 40 vs the Panther gun KwK42 L/70 and their explosive filler seemed to be almost identical (slightly more for the KvK 40). Less than I had imagined.

KwK 40:
  • Explosive filler: 0.66 kg (1.5 lb) of amatol (2760 Kilojoules)
KwK 42:
  • Explosive weight: 0.650 kg (1.66 lb) (2,720 Kilojoules)
Although it seems the lb is stated wrong, so who knows what else. That's wikipedia, it's quite good and easy but not perfect :)
 
Nemesis said:
CMX1 gave blast values for all guns and artillery. I suspect that these same values carried over to CMX2. It is not that the Panther's HE shell is going fast. It is that it is a lighter shell than the US 75mm shell fired from a Sherman which is a larger shell with more HE. I mention the Sherman because I know its blast value was higher and I don't remember the PzIV 75mm blast value.

The models for buildings are interesting. Some buildings are fortresses, others are frail, and others are in between. A recent game with Titan saw his men in buildings survive heavy 105mm and 155mm bombardments. Look for brick or concrete construction. But even buildings with decent wood construction (not shacks) will allow you to easily survive 81mm mortar bombardments.
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Panzer cannons 75mm long and short and the Panther gun all had 45 blast value. Infantry gun has 47 blast.
 
g00.jpg
If only by concussion, that guy should be dead... compare to the 3 + 3 Russians.
 
Real life story.
An older friend of mine was in Nam one night when his cp was hit by mortar fire knocking him off his cot. He grabs his M16 and runs outside in his underwear. Soon a grenade lands at his feet and exploded. When he came to he discovered nothing. I repeat...no wounds...none. But he M16 was inoperable.
So he grabbed an AK47 and continued fighting until the attack was replused
 
Well, I only play with unlucky Russians...
 
Abbasid111 said:
Soon a grenade lands at his feet and exploded. When he came to he discovered nothing. I repeat...no wounds
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War stories tend to improve with age. The grenade that landed 'at his feet' might just have landed nearby.
 
We walked out to the edge of the forest and I proposed moving a bit further. The forest edge was an excellent reference point for German artillery. However, the 2nd company's officers and Guschenkov and Kes disagreed with me. Before we could finish our argument, the enemy opened up with heavy artillery and mortar fire. It all happened very suddenly, and only during the barrage did the soldiers start to duck for cover. It is interesting that we did not have loses. I stood there as if I was dumbfounded, and for some time did not have any idea where I should lie down. A shell exploded at my feet. I was enveloped in smoke, finally came to my senses and threw myself under a tank that had driven up to us. Then Bratchenko and I ran a bit further on, as we were afraid that the tank would squash us.

The firing quickly ceased and it became silent again. Bratchenko and I stood up and went to find out about the loses in the company. It turned out that there were no casualties, and it was quite amazing -- I had not been under such an intensive strike for a long time. Guschenkov, Kes and two more officers were unharmed. I do not remember the names of those two officers as they did not stay in the battalion for long, they left soon afterwords. They had already calmed down and were about to deal with the stress with a good shot of vodka, but they did not make it, as Bratchenko and I arrived. It turned out that they were raising a glass (in fact, it was a mess lid) for the resting in peace of Evgeni Bessonov and the Sargent Major. They had to revise the toast and raise the glass for our health when we showed up. They told me that they saw that a shell hit me, and when the smoke cleared I was not there. This is why they thought that Bratchenko had been killed and I had been blown to pieces. However, my jackboots were torn by splinters and greatcoat was also full of holes.

-- Evgeni Bessonov, Tank Rider
 
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Bulletpoint said:
War stories tend to improve with age. The grenade that landed 'at his feet' might just have landed nearby.
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Actually, things like this happen all the time. ComBlock munitions were often very poorly made and maintained. Sometimes not all the explosive goes off. Sometimes the explosive is compromised. And some concussion grenades throw relatively few fragments.

Western munitions are much better made. By "doctrine," the west tends to use more powerful grenades too.
 
True that on ChiCom ordinance.
As a 'tunnel rat' Dave became very familiar with VC weaponry.
But those are other stories...with a good bottle of 12 year old scotch or several rum and cokes....
 
Lethaface said:
I'm no expert on the subject, but once read about how higher velocity projectiles need to be stronger because of the higher pressure / forces that are involved. Everything else equal, that means less room for explosive filler. Which sounded logic :)

Lighter shells obviously also leave less room for explosives.

I looked up the filler for the PzIV gun KwK 40 vs the Panther gun KwK42 L/70 and their explosive filler seemed to be almost identical (slightly more for the KvK 40). Less than I had imagined.

KwK 40:
  • Explosive filler: 0.66 kg (1.5 lb) of amatol (2760 Kilojoules)
KwK 42:
  • Explosive weight: 0.650 kg (1.66 lb) (2,720 Kilojoules)
Although it seems the lb is stated wrong, so who knows what else. That's wikipedia, it's quite good and easy but not perfect :)
Click to expand...

@Lethaface, look what I came across.

You can see the US 75mm having the longer projectile but smaller case containing less propellant.

View attachment 26217

View attachment 26217
 
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