I love Combat Mission

[Blady]

Does shoot and scoot even work in Combat Mission? It seems to me the shooter would be at a disadvantage moving into position. Moving = easier to spot, and worse at spotting. When the shooter stops moving, he then has to aquire the target and aim.. and the first shot at that range is likely to miss - from both sides. Then back down again, resetting the engagement.

It does (I was as surprised as you) given a few requirements:
- distance, don't scoot too far or you will be seen
- keyhole, try not to expose yourself to too many targets at once
- flank, head on the spotting game is easily lost
- having infantry nearby that spot the target. that does not only give you an exact location, but should also give a "grey" contact icon for your tank in cover too, making it easier to spot
- time, meaning, many of the scoots will turn up nothing (I used between 15-30s pause at the extended location each time), and each one takes about a full turn

I think I used in total 10 of these scoots, KO-ing 2 panthers, one pzIV and losing one t34. Do realize that by now the distances were much closer, somewhere in the 500-700m range

 

[Gnarly]

Does shoot and scoot even work in Combat Mission? It seems to me the shooter would be at a disadvantage moving into position. Moving = easier to spot, and worse at spotting. When the shooter stops moving, he then has to aquire the target and aim.. and the first shot at that range is likely to miss - from both sides. Then back down again, resetting the engagement.

My read (at least) of 'shoot and scoot', is that you are initially static, waiting for a target to come into LOF, then Shoot. Then Scoot out of LOF (and better, out of LOS) into a new firing position, and again await target to come into LOS/LOF. You shouldn't be scooting into LOS/LOF of the enemy.

 

[Stafford]

Biggest gamble with shoot n scoot is relying on CMs arcane spotting mechanics, what you see and what your tank sees, or more frequently doesn't see, are often two very different things.

 

[Bulletpoint]

My read (at least) of 'shoot and scoot', is that you are initially static, waiting for a target to come into LOF, then Shoot. Then Scoot out of LOF (and better, out of LOS) into a new firing position, and again await target to come into LOS/LOF. You shouldn't be scooting into LOS/LOF of the enemy.

Makes sense, but seems Blady actually does use it to pop out of cover and back again repeatedly..

 

[Blady]

Makes sense, but seems Blady actually does use it to pop out of cover and back again repeatedly..

Yeah, I guess I'm using the wrong terminology. I'm not too familiar with military terminology, but I do mean "pop out of cover, (try to) shoot, pop back into cover". It also meant finding a new spot after a successful attempt, to either locate a new target or prevent him from getting me the next time I pop out. That lesson was quickly learned earlier in the game, @olaf was very successful in preventing me from using the same location twice, so I had to get really creative at finding good firing positions.

By the way; "out of cover" here is rather relative, since he had such a mass of panthers on more or less the same location (often with brilliantly mutually supplementing firing arcs) , I only dared popping "out" still heavily under tree cover or as hull-down as I could get in grain fields. I never dared to ride forward to a full "blue" LOS line to the intended target, always a small pink tip with a solid blue line with a "reverse slope" and preferable "spotter hull down" message with it. That is enough to see a tank I found, but does lower spotting chances to the target.

 

[Bulletpoint]

Well, seems your method succeeded in driving him nuts

 

[Drifter Man]

In CMx1 there was a "shoot & scoot" order available for vehicles, which made the vehicle go forward to the first waypoint and engage any targets it can find, then reverse to the second waypoint. So I guess it can have that meaning.
Good info in this thread, thanks everyone for sharing.

 

[Bulletpoint]

In CMx1 there was a "shoot & scoot" order available for vehicles, which made the vehicle go forward to the first waypoint and engage any targets it can find, then reverse to the second waypoint.

It would wait till it spotted a target before reversing? Would be nice to have that again, also for snipers and infantry AT teams.

 

[Drifter Man]

It would wait till it spotted a target before reversing? Would be nice to have that again, also for snipers and infantry AT teams.

No, it would just wait for a few seconds there. In CMx2 you can do this same thing with a combination of movement and pause orders. Unfortunately, no spot-shoot-retreat trigger.

 

[olaf]

I recall my artillery spotter was unable to spot hills because when they stop they turn prone into the grass, so half the game was me trying to find a suitable location to see parts of the map. My opponent could because he was set at higher elevations to begin with. I wanted smoke rounds put in a line right in the open, covering my tanks but the spotter simply couldnt because he had no LOS with grass in front of him. He could not see 10 m ahead.
I had smoke rounds being planned but then as all my HE rounds were depleted I forgot they actually deplete the smoke rounds too XD

But what I miss the most is a "if a tank is spotted from my tank at this location, will I be able to have LOS to it?" tool, instead of "grass is seen from my tank at this location but if a tank shows up around there we have no idea if you have LOS to it"

 

[Bulletpoint]

the spotter simply couldnt because he had no LOS with grass in front of him. He could not see 10 m ahead.

I've been trying to work out if there's any logic behind their decision to either go prone or not, but I haven't been able to work out any pattern. Wishing they would implement an "active/cautious" toggle.

 

[Stafford]

The most fuckery I've found with non-spotting problems is when the unit, typically infantry, can't see the base tile of what he should be spotting. ie, a tank hulldown behind a crest, he can't see the tile the tank is sitting on, so he can't see the tank.

I made a gif about this issue some months ago.

 

[Bulletpoint]

The most fuckery I've found with non-spotting problems is when the unit, typically infantry, can't see the base tile of what he should be spotting. ie, a tank hulldown behind a crest, he can't see the tile the tank is sitting on, so he can't see the tank.

I made a gif about this issue some months ago.

Would like to see the gif, if you still have it?

Even if they can't spot the ground of the tile, they should still be able to spot vehicles at a certain height above it.

 

[Stafford]

This is the gif, but not the incident that I was thinking of, although it did occur in the same game. Sadly I no longer have the save files from that game to screenshot that particular instance.

 

[Bulletpoint]

View attachment 22889

This is the gif, but not the incident that I was thinking of, although it did occur in the same game. Sadly I no longer have the save files from that game to screenshot that particular instance.

In this case, I think it's a matter of the typical disconnect between the graphics of the game and what's actually going on. Those trees are modelled as having branches all the way down to ground, even though the graphics show a tree without low branches.

The guy on the left is prone in high grass, and again the grass height is not shown properly by the graphics.

I'm just as annoyed with these issues as anyone, but I think these are the actual reasons in this case.

 

[A Canadian Cat]

Biggest gamble with shoot n scoot is relying on CMs arcane spotting mechanics, what you see and what your tank sees, or more frequently doesn't see, are often two very different things.

A technique I use is to area fire (usually with target briefly) where I know / think the enemy is. If the tank does spot the enemy unit they will, typically, switch their attention to the actual threat they see and fire the right ammo at it. If they don't ever spot the target they will at least send some HE down range. I have been lucky doing this HE can do a lot against many targets.

I have never done extensive testing but it seem work work for me.

 

[jobu88]

CM needs an LOS tool. Basically there is no way (that I know of) where I can tell if I can see another tank from a different position without actually putting the tank there.

Plot a move order to a likely spot. Click on the new blue/yellow/pink move path and it will turn thicker and brighter. Now select "Target" and you can see what's in LOS from the new spot. If that spot doesn't work, cancel the move order and try again with a new spot until you find the location that has LOS. You can even tell a unit to go there and start shooting at a target.

 

[olaf]

Plot a move order to a likely spot. Click on the new blue/yellow/pink move path and it will turn thicker and brighter. Now select "Target" and you can see what's in LOS from the new spot. If that spot doesn't work, cancel the move order and try again with a new spot until you find the location that has LOS. You can even tell a unit to go there and start shooting at a target.

See it will still not give you an accurate reading on a raised target like a tank. You might not have LOS to a certain area but you could have LOS to a tank possibly entering that area. It will not tell you that however.

 

[Blady]

That's why i used either "reverse slope - no aim point" or just simply a mostly dark blue target line, with only the tip pink. It was not always correct, but i agree with you that aiming for a full light blue target line was suicide in that scenario.

 

[Shepherd74]

Plot a move order to a likely spot. Click on the new blue/yellow/pink move path and it will turn thicker and brighter. Now select "Target" and you can see what's in LOS from the new spot. If that spot doesn't work, cancel the move order and try again with a new spot until you find the location that has LOS.

To save time with this you can also plot multiple waypoints out with the same unit around where you want to check LOS. Then the process as above and then just click to the next waypoint. When you find one that has the LOS you want just delete the waypoint string and move to that spot. It’s not 100% but gives a better idea than just guessing.

In the RT demo battle I found this very useful in knowing where my Stug’s had to be to pop out of the woods, set a pause command of 30 seconds (for them to select enemy armor on their own as targets) or so, then reverse back into the woods to their original start spot. Then displace them and repeat from a different spot.