Kiev turning into a civil war zone
- Thread starter Rico
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Strachwitz
Guest
Dramatic pictures indeed.
You look at those pictures like many other countries in conflict like Syria, and what these people do to there country is just unbelievable, question is for me are these people that bad of, or there leaders that bad, The people always look well fed, and well clothed, ?????????
Well fed and clothed people are not immune to the threats to their Human Rights by the despots who run their govts.
I´m with the protesters. A government what holds itself by force is tyranny. Ukrainians were always hard fighters. So it would explain the hard clashes. I would wish the Germans would stay together again like that. Some of the pictures made me almost laugh - for example the one where the police looks like the legions in the Asterix & Obelix movies - short before they will overrrun by Obelix. Other pictures again make me real angry or sad. And a RIOT POLICE? A police whose task is to suppress riots? Is that the the technical term? Or I´m misunderstanding something? Would be a bad sign if the government extra establish such a force. But maybe I have not enough info and misinterpret something.
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C
Cargol
Guest
It's all about power and control.
Russia is struggling to keep as far as possible Western Powers (NATO&EU) from its borders,
while Western Powers are trying to isolate Russia and keep it under control fearing her expansion plans.
The people of Ukraine will pay the price as it happens always with the ones caught in-between when the ''Major Powers'' are struggling for power.
Russia is struggling to keep as far as possible Western Powers (NATO&EU) from its borders,
while Western Powers are trying to isolate Russia and keep it under control fearing her expansion plans.
The people of Ukraine will pay the price as it happens always with the ones caught in-between when the ''Major Powers'' are struggling for power.
Hm, how about "we" (the western "good guys") send a force as the KFOR or SFOR or something of the other forces - sent by power wanting governments who pretend to do that all for freedom and peace of the world? Maybe there is given danger of nuclear or chemical or biological weapons. At least one could pretend it would be so. Wouldn´t that a present for the old Bush - Obama - Corporation?
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The first photo is amazing. -
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DasTiger
Guest
My dear Hedge,
Imagine this. Someone breaks into your home and you catch them. You know who they are. You call the police. And then wait for hours. When they do show up they really don't care but you tell them you know where this thief lives. They say, "OK. for $50 we will go talk to him." You begrudgingly pay them and the next day they come back and tell you he didn't do it. Later you find out that they beat him up, took $100 from him and let him go. Happened to my wife.
Or this. You are out for a nice drive and you get pulled over 3 time in a 4 hour drive and have to pay each "officer" $25-50 bucks for some stupid violation that he seems to have made up on the spot. No ticket. Just pay now or else...... That really happened to me.
This is what the Ukrainians live with on a daily basis. And the higher you go up the chain the more you pay. You pay for EVERY service that should be free. Licenses must be bribed. Businesses pay bribes. And the officials laugh and the population lives in fear.
Yanukovych is a convicted thief and thug.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych
In 2012 Ukraine was 144th out of 176 nations ranked (tied with Syria) for the worst corruption.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine
The government in Ukraine has been classified as a kleptocracy by some countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleptocracy
The last time my wife and I went over we we talking about the corruption. I told her that eventually the people will rise and revolt. She didn't agree because the Ukrainian people are kind and don't want any more wars or unrest. Many of the older population still remember the past 60-70 years. But a people can only take so much.
Good bless those people. They will win. Unless Russia steps in. And I guarantee you Putin is shaking in his boots and wants the revolt crushed NOW. The Russian press is full of lies to convince the Russian people that this is an isolated event caused by Western powers. That the Ukrainian people don't want this. That it is just young hooligans. They don't look young to me.
Here is the same area in happier times. My wife, son and I about 4 years ago.
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2054172
Guest
Well it would be easier for all countries in conflict if those other countries on the out side would stay out. Russia and the USA etc.
Just a question are the police protecting the people or their masters? I would be interested to know the results of their elections and how this all started.
Just a question are the police protecting the people or their masters? I would be interested to know the results of their elections and how this all started.
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Strachwitz
Guest
I haven't made up my mind regarding the uprising in the Ukraine. I have to read some more stuff first but I think Cargol has it quite good. The poor Ukrainian are stuck between the West who's real intentions are for sure just economical/power reasons and has nothing to do with freedom and democracy and Russia. Also just because of economical/power reasons. I hope it goes well for the Ukrainians.
What I really want to say is you have to be clear about that not just the eastern media is telling lies about what happens this also true for the western media. Our media as well as theirs is basically full of propaganda. So you can not trust anyone.
What I really want to say is you have to be clear about that not just the eastern media is telling lies about what happens this also true for the western media. Our media as well as theirs is basically full of propaganda. So you can not trust anyone.
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Cargol
Guest
Whoever thinks that uprisings are happening like this,without any kind of foreign intervention or aid, especially in countries
of the former so called Eastern Block with all their organisation and structure of intelligence services and security organizations is at least naive.
My prediction is that things will calm down and some kind of back stage agreement will be achieved and a so called ''change'' will occur in Ukraine.
I wouldnt be surprised if i see Russia stepping back in another conflict area,Syria for example or at least adopt a more passive stance.
of the former so called Eastern Block with all their organisation and structure of intelligence services and security organizations is at least naive.
My prediction is that things will calm down and some kind of back stage agreement will be achieved and a so called ''change'' will occur in Ukraine.
I wouldnt be surprised if i see Russia stepping back in another conflict area,Syria for example or at least adopt a more passive stance.
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Strachwitz
Guest
This is just to add some other perspective to the mass media informations.
Interesting speech by Victoria Nuland in December 2013.
Also interesting is the leaked Victoria Nuland "F#ck the EU" telephone call. Not because of the "F#ck the EU" which was the only thing upstirred by mass media in Europe. They should be glad she said that statement as it effectively gave mass media a distraction from the real deal mentioned in the telephone call. They basically talk about who should be involved in a near future ukrainian governmet after effectively beeing overthrown.
Interesting speech by Victoria Nuland in December 2013.
Also interesting is the leaked Victoria Nuland "F#ck the EU" telephone call. Not because of the "F#ck the EU" which was the only thing upstirred by mass media in Europe. They should be glad she said that statement as it effectively gave mass media a distraction from the real deal mentioned in the telephone call. They basically talk about who should be involved in a near future ukrainian governmet after effectively beeing overthrown.
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DasTiger
Guest
While I do agree that foreign countries are playing a roll in the overall outcome, it is the Ukrainian citizens who have gotten sick of the influence of Russian on decades of their history and the current corrupt system. This situation started with the people and has become an international issue.
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R T
Guest
John Kerry warns Russia “not to send the wrong message� Gee John, what message do 2000 troops landing say to you?
U.S./England may have to defend Ukraine by treaty. Ukrainian parliament has now reached out directly to all the countries who signed the treaty.
If this is valid, it sounds like we may have a legal obligation to defend Ukraine
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-British-Ambassador-Moscow-warns-Russia-invaded-Ukraine-difficult-avoid-going-war.html#ixzz2uf7KmvTk
President Obama gave a short statement on the events in Ukraine, warning Russia to not meddle in the country’s affairs. You tell em Bams!!! Oh wait, they already meddled.
After presser on Ukraine Obama headed to DNC fundraiser at Capitol Hilton, keepin it real as usual.
The Ukraine is too strategically important for Russia for numerous reasons to ever let it go to the West, never happen , bank it.
Putin has balls, Bams doesn't even know what balls are, we'll see how this one goes.
The problem is you have an ex-KGB cold war warrior leading the Russians and an inexperienced community organizer who believes his own bullshit leading the US'
I'd be more worried about Obama doing something stupid than doing nothing at all.
U.S./England may have to defend Ukraine by treaty. Ukrainian parliament has now reached out directly to all the countries who signed the treaty.
If this is valid, it sounds like we may have a legal obligation to defend Ukraine
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-British-Ambassador-Moscow-warns-Russia-invaded-Ukraine-difficult-avoid-going-war.html#ixzz2uf7KmvTk
President Obama gave a short statement on the events in Ukraine, warning Russia to not meddle in the country’s affairs. You tell em Bams!!! Oh wait, they already meddled.
After presser on Ukraine Obama headed to DNC fundraiser at Capitol Hilton, keepin it real as usual.
The Ukraine is too strategically important for Russia for numerous reasons to ever let it go to the West, never happen , bank it.
Putin has balls, Bams doesn't even know what balls are, we'll see how this one goes.
The problem is you have an ex-KGB cold war warrior leading the Russians and an inexperienced community organizer who believes his own bullshit leading the US'
I'd be more worried about Obama doing something stupid than doing nothing at all.
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R T
Guest
Please notice I did say "if valid" and The Telegraph says the same.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...its-rescue-as-Russia-accused-of-invasion.html
"Bert Blitzkrieg said:
Actually I prefer that nothing from the west is done at all, I don't think we have the resources to handle an angry bear on his hometurf.