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Lethaface

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In a non-ladder PBEM concluded today, @The_MonkeyKing has bravely surrendered his USMC forces to my unconventional troops. After the battle the marines were treated with food, drinks and hookah as they have gotten the respect of my fighters due to their brave resolve, fighting till the bitter end.

Anyway, this was my first CMSF2 QB with Syrian/Unconventional forces (and my first CMSF2 QB, but not first PBEM). As my opponent suggested an urban map with him as the USMC, I opted for the uncoventionals. I'd try the Syrians too, if their RPG ammo wouldn't be buged in QB's.

He did mention
Hello,
I am once again looking for CMSF2 opponents. I would prefer experienced players and would like to get my ass handed back to me.
Perhaps he jinxed himself there :p

Anyway, I was able to 'catch' the USMC push with combatants and wittle them down with RPGs. With a VBIED an Abrams was taken out of the fight, while better 'fighter' troops reinforced positions where the USMC was weakened. All the while RPG, Sniper and MG teams hurt the enemy wherever they could. Although the same can be said for the USMC, especially the SMAW and .50 snipers were deadly (and 1 specific MG team).
In the end our struggles bared fruitful results, as the Marines were forced to surrender:


CMSF2uncon2.pngCMSF2uncon3.pngCMSF2uncon1.png

Although the USMC had more troops left compared to my expectations and he could have pressed the HQ's to the frontline, it probably would have been a bloody affair. I want to take my hat of out of respect to my opponent, for surrendering.

Also, IMO this result proves CMSF2 models modern urban warfare and unconventional quite accurately. In the open my forces wouldn't have stood any chance.
 

The_MonkeyKing

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ggwp

My loose plan of action. Yellow lines are planned lines of fire for tanks, IFVs, and heavy weapons.

On the top:
1. Scout platoon(with LAV-25) takes hold of the bulge seen on the top of the map. The scout platoon was expendable. Mission was to make room for the 1st marine platoon to set camp.
2. 1st marine platoon(with AAVs) reinforces this bulge and sets up a defence.
3. With M1A1s and LAV-25 setup kill zones according to the yellow lines.

mid and bottom:
1. 2nd and 3rd marine platoons take hold of the center road and cross it if possible while avoiding casualties. (For the initial land grab)
2. Two M1A1s in reserve

20200503111634_1.jpg
 

Lethaface

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ggwp

My loose plan of action. Yellow lines are planned lines of fire for tanks, IFVs, and heavy weapons.

On the top:
1. Scout platoon(with LAV-25) takes hold of the bulge seen on the top of the map. The scout platoon was expendable. Mission was to make room for the 1st marine platoon to set camp.
2. 1st marine platoon(with AAVs) reinforces this bulge and sets up a defence.
3. With M1A1s and LAV-25 setup kill zones according to the yellow lines.

mid and bottom:
1. 2nd and 3rd marine platoons take hold of the center road and cross it if possible while avoiding casualties. (For the initial land grab)
2. Two M1A1s in reserve
Thanks for posting your plan. Will try post something show my original and adapted plan, but first have to 'face' my hangover for a moment. Have a long weekend and enjoyed some (or maybe more than some) special beers last night :)
 

Lethaface

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My plan:

Forces (approximate)

First line forces
* ~6 huge combatants (regular, high motivation)

Combat reserve
* 6 large fighters (veteran, extreme motivation)

Support
* 3 combatant command (reg/high)
* 3 fighter command (minus AT-14s) (vet/extr)
* 4 VBIED
* 2x FO Spy with 3 81mm mortars attached
* Some transports

All forces were considered expendable, although I tried to use the snipers/RPG/mortars in such a way they can actually use most of their ammo before becoming a casualty. The combat reserve did feature significantly better quality troops, as I imagined the first troops to come into contact wouldn't have great survival chances.

QB-UNCON-purchase.jpg


Plan:
First part of the plan was legging it!
While I had some transports, those are like cardboard boxes so I didn't try to get into contact with those or spend too much points on non-combat capable units. I mainly used them to try to get some troops forward (mortars into position and some combatants forward elements) while the rest leg it. The plan was to cautiously move my first line troops into yours, hoping to engage only at the shortest possible distance.

From there I would trade terrain and firstline troops, attriting your troops while causing chaos in between the frontline with the VBIEDs and mortars. The fighters were kept in reserve to have proper fallback line and some defense in depth. I tried to sprinkle the 'combatant command' teams all over the place.

If successful the fighters were to reinforce the area's where I could have best chances of breaking your lines.

The dotted lines are my first line troops falling back after first contact (if there were any survivors), the dash-dot line is my combat reserve reinforcing the frontline and where I tried to push forward

QB-USMC-UNCON.png

Although my plan to stealthy sneak forward was all void when LAVs and AAVs crashed into the bulge on the top of the map, onloading troops (VBIED smelled that). At the same time, this basically gave me the same outcome as what I had hoped to achieve with my stealth plans. I stuck with my planned strategy and it worked out quite ok. Which is imo sort of realistic: at such close range most advantages the USMC has are nullified. While the unconventional has the advantage to be able to take more casualties. That being said the volume of fire of various calibres and 40mmHE was withering, at times I wondered if my forces could hold.

Most first line troops were badly mauled, but were able to give back quite some hurt too. I was especially happy to take out the LAVs without too much losses. The autocannon is deadly in urban fighting. One of the most thrilling moments in PBEMS I had so far was when I used the VBIED against your abrams. I thought it had a good chance so went for it, but could have easily turned out differently I guess.
The combat reserve did it's duty, while taking quite some casualties too.
 

The_MonkeyKing

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Is it just me @The_MonkeyKing , or were the LAVs a little too forward-deployed? Seems a lot of burning hulks right on the frontline? :p
The went forward for the initial land grab. Unfortunately they didn't survive this endeavor. Later the would have been pulled back or nice long-range keyholing. And I did a lot of greedy maneuvers with them. Underestimated uncons.
 

Anschlag

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interesting. This is all very consistent with what I experienced playing Red in CMSF2. I played a large scenario with @PhilM a couple of month ago and his German forces blasted the heck out of me. But other battles, in urban areas, have proven much more successful for Red forces. I hate MOUT but in this time and with these forces I prefer it. Nice screens and discussion, guys.
 

Lethaface

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interesting. This is all very consistent with what I experienced playing Red in CMSF2. I played a large scenario with @PhilM a couple of month ago and his German forces blasted the heck out of me. But other battles, in urban areas, have proven much more successful for Red forces. I hate MOUT but in this time and with these forces I prefer it. Nice screens and discussion, guys.
Thanks!

Interesting to read about others experiences. Imo red forces are sometimes undervalued, due to various reasons. Obviously there are (sometimes large) capability differences and neglecting those will lead to utter defeats. However, playing around those can challenge most Blue forces. Some asymmetric tactics and less force preservation are what I think most important. A unit has to achieve it's goal, whether it survives is less important. Also, Syrians on the offensive and or in meeting engagements is indeed only viable in very difficult terrain like large urban area's. This is also realistic in my opinion, the CMSF (2007) Syrian Army would not try to attack Blue forces in similar strength in a 'regular' conventional attack scenario. They might try to overpower by outnumbering, but smaller guerilla hit & run type of actions would be more appropriate imo. Defense would center around the well defenseable positions, with heavy use of ambush tactics, IEDs, ATGMs and perhaps throwing in some armor to try to turn around a battle by causing unacceptable losses to Blue.
With those parameters in mind, Red is certainly not without chance in a scenario / QB.

At the moment the Unconventionals might be better compared to Syrian army in pure urban battles. They get some benefits of civilian density and they bring a shit load of RPGs (with more ammo in a uncon team than a full Syrian squad in QBs). Also, due to their basic outfit you can get quite a lot of them too. They even field AT-14s, one of the best weapons of RED in CMSF2.
Also VBIEDs, while they might be less effective to deliver big HE compared to a T-72, they are proper terror weapons which will have it's effect on the enemy player, I guess. And, their HE is really big so if you manage to come near to something it's almost guaranteed to be game over for it. You just need a few, the first one is probably the most effective. Afterwards the opponent must always be on guard, or risk that a VBIED sneak past his lines and cause mayhem in the back field.
 

Anschlag

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Some asymmetric tactics and less force preservation are what I think most important. A unit has to achieve it's goal, whether it survives is less important.

{snip}

They might try to overpower by outnumbering, but smaller guerilla hit & run type of actions would be more appropriate imo.
All true and valid points though there are limits to the "numbers is a quality all its own" thesis. In the open the multiplicative factors the western forces have over Red are shocking - vision, accuracy and firepower are difficult to overcome with numbers alone. One truly needs to find an edge and that can pose some difficult challenges for the Red player. At some point it becomes more work than fun for me, but that's a personal thing and not a universal constant.
 

Lethaface

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All true and valid points though there are limits to the "numbers is a quality all its own" thesis. In the open the multiplicative factors the western forces have over Red are shocking - vision, accuracy and firepower are difficult to overcome with numbers alone. One truly needs to find an edge and that can pose some difficult challenges for the Red player. At some point it becomes more work than fun for me, but that's a personal thing and not a universal constant.
Agreed; with thermal optics, long distance accurate fires and quick to call in heavy artillery numbers only don't mean much. Just more fodder for the cannon.

Can understand the feeling regarding feeling like work. Trying to herd the pixeltruppen can sometimes really seem like work (i.e. "NO!!! that's not what I meant, @%#@). Guess when/how is different for everyone.
Personally find it interesting to investigate tactics and strategies for Red which can Blue a bloody nose. A bit of mixing guerilla tactics and strategies with conventional forces. Urban battles can be a bit like puzzle's, although I don't like puzzle's I do like analyzing problems and coming with new approaches. Probably a bit how others like to indulge in weapons testing.

One thing I noticed on RED capabilities is that the Turms-T seems to have gotten better at spotting compared to CMSF1. At the same time the AT-14 has been doing quite some more nosedives since CMSF2.
 
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