Texas Shootings

[Hedgehog]

There have been 199 mass shootings in the US in 2022. There have been 27 school shootings. There have only been 144 days this year.

@Nemesis

If I may engage in dialogue.

While I don't disagree with your contention that this is in large part a mental health issue, particularly insofar as it pertains to the individuals who carry out these heinous attacks. As an outsider constantly it seems receiving these news stories, the conundrum comes when one stops to ponder the question why is it then that the U.S. appears to be so uniquely impacted by this particular mental health issue when compared to virtually all other countries around the world?

As your neighbor to the north, and a peoples who partake & share together in so many varied aspects of North American life in common with our southern neighbors that side-by-side we are often virtually indistinguishable from one another, we also have a fairly high degree of gun ownership in our country but yet see no where near the same amount of mass shootings that appear to happen with such depressing frequency in the U.S. Why then do so many other countries do not manifest this same penchant for the indiscriminate taking of innocent lives in mass shootings? Your thoughts?

Regarding your concerns about government oppression, while again I am in no way dismissive of your views in that regard, from my perspective this touchstone belief in the power of the barrel too poses a certain conundrum when trying to think it through to its logical conclusion. If one takes the view that individual gun ownership is the appropriate counter-weight to government oppression, then I must ask myself, against who exactly are these guns to be used? By what criteria and against what individuals or identifiable entities are these guns to be trained upon & inevitably fired?

I trust you will agree that it is highly unlikely that the 'oppressors' however they may ultimately be defined, will be walking around in identifiable uniforms for one to take a shot at. So exactly how is the individual gun owner expected to go about separating the 'good' fellow citizens from the 'bad' fellow citizens should it ever come to that?

This is not to make light of the issue, I believe I can understand the sentiment, but generally speaking I would argue most popular uprisings against oppressive regimes that do succeed in significantly changing the status quo, succeeded by generally peaceful means of non-violent mass protests, general strikes and the like. While isolated incidents of 'violence' do occasionally punctuate these uprisings, they alone do not propel these uprisings forward. So I am at a loss to understand how is the individual gun owner is expected to be a bulwark against oppression, simply by virtue of possessing an assault rifle? Your thoughts?

Cheers

 

[Hedgehog]

Reading through the messages it does seem like you have one hell of a situation brewing out there,

 

[Bones26]

Let me ask you, as you are a resident of Quebec. What do you think will happen if Quebec holds another referendum and votes in favor of sovereignty?

There were two referendums on this and one nearly passed.

One caveat to what I'm about to say. Quebec covers a vast area (its roughly 2.4 times the size of France) with many regions of varying density, political, economic and social variances. Although bilingual, English is my Mother tongue. Thus my exposure to Quebec society and its political aspirations is more often than not presented to me through a predominantly English media lens and whatever bias that might come with that. So what I guess I'm trying to say is, my living here shouldn't be construed as making me anything close to being an authoritative voice on the subject.

That being said, at the present time I don't sense any groundswell of support amongst the general population for any dramatic change in the status quo and the province's relationship with the rest of Canada. In fact, in my 68 years largely spent living here (I also lived for a few years in Toronto), this is amongst the quietest periods I have sensed the general sentiment on the question of independence.

I suspect that any periodic bouts of separation rhetoric that occasionally might surface has more to do with political posturing and attempting to gain some leverage over the Federal government in some area of jurisdiction, than in any real anger & frustration with the status quo. Its simply the nature of our Federal system of governance. And the Western provinces after years of watching Quebec play this card, eventually caught on and now use it as well as part of their negotiation strategies

Regarding the referendum's. Having lived through both of them and watched as the final tally in 1995 came in at a razor thin 50.58% to stay part of Canada, one must appreciate how civilly the population handled that result. While there were tensions present and some isolated incidents, in large part there were no major disruptions to life and while surely resentments were present amongst the political classes in particular, the general population seemed to have accepted the vote and simply moved on with their lives.

In the years that followed, Quebec was able to secure increasing powers and jurisdictions for itself and the generation that endured the injustices of the past, both real and perceived, and that gave rise to call for separation have largely passed from the active political scene. Now a new generation that has had even greater access and exposure to the world through the internet etc does not carry that same baggage from the past. A poll conducted in 2020, 25 years after that referendum showed only 34% of Quebecers would now support independence and 54% would be against.

More recently if one followed the Freedom Convoy efforts, you were likely to find just as many French speaking Quebecers in Ottawa and on the highway overpasses throughout the province waving Canadian flags in support of the truckers just like in the rest of Canada. (Trudeau finally brough the country together)

Quebec you will find is an interesting place, and frankly I really enjoy living here. If you ever get the urge to visit I'd be glad to show you around.

Not sure that answers your question.

Cheers!

 

[Josey Wales]

6 million dead Jews might have appreciated firearms when the Nazis were rounding them up.

The Jews of Nazi Germany consisted of less than 1% of the country’s population. Even if they had had access to military grade weapons of the day, it wouldn’t have made a blind bit of difference against the Nazi regime whose primary domestic policy was to systemically persecute Jews. The Nazis could do this whilst not only enjoying the backing of the best armed military force in Europe at the time, but also with the backing of the majority of the German population.

Most Jews went willingly, albeit reluctantly, to the ghettos and then to the gas chambers. They just couldn’t begin to fathom the end that was in store for them and many refused to believe it was true even after being told of their upcoming fate. Having access to weapons would not have changed what happened to them.

 

[Nemesis]

The Jews of Nazi Germany consisted of less than 1% of the country’s population. Even if they had had access to military grade weapons of the day, it wouldn’t have made a blind bit of difference against the Nazi regime whose primary domestic policy was to systemically persecute Jews. The Nazis could do this whilst not only enjoying the backing of the best armed military force in Europe at the time, but also with the backing of the majority of the German population.

Most Jews went willingly, albeit reluctantly, to the ghettos and then to the gas chambers. They just couldn’t begin to fathom the end that was in store for them and many refused to believe it was true even after being told of their upcoming fate. Having access to weapons would not have changed what happened to them.

Actually, it would have made a difference.

Rather than sending individual officers with pistols to round up Jews, they would have had to send squads with rifles. It would seriously complicate their evil efforts.

We cannot, of course, say that 3 million would have died vs 6 million. We can never know the counterfactual. But resistance would have made a tangible difference.

I hear this argument all the time that people with rifles cannot stand against governments. Well, you had better tell the Taliban that.

 

[Josey Wales]

Actually, it would have made a difference.

Rather than sending individual officers with pistols to round up Jews, they would have had to send squads with rifles. It would seriously complicate their evil efforts.

We cannot, of course, say that 3 million would have died vs 6 million. We can never know the counterfactual. But resistance would have made a tangible difference.

I hear this argument all the time that people with rifles cannot stand against governments. Well, you had better tell the Taliban that.

Let’s agree to disagree on the Jewish question. I don’t see that the Taliban argument is an equivalent, they have the support of the population.

 

[Nemesis]

One caveat to what I'm about to say. Quebec covers a vast area (its roughly 2.4 times the size of France) with many regions of varying density, political, economic and social variances. Although bilingual, English is my Mother tongue. Thus my exposure to Quebec society and its political aspirations is more often than not presented to me through a predominantly English media lens and whatever bias that might come with that. So what I guess I'm trying to say is, my living here shouldn't be construed as making me anything close to being an authoritative voice on the subject.

That being said, at the present time I don't sense any groundswell of support amongst the general population for any dramatic change in the status quo and the province's relationship with the rest of Canada. In fact, in my 68 years largely spent living here (I also lived for a few years in Toronto), this is amongst the quietest periods I have sensed the general sentiment on the question of independence.

I suspect that any periodic bouts of separation rhetoric that occasionally might surface has more to do with political posturing and attempting to gain some leverage over the Federal government in some area of jurisdiction, than in any real anger & frustration with the status quo. Its simply the nature of our Federal system of governance. And the Western provinces after years of watching Quebec play this card, eventually caught on and now use it as well as part of their negotiation strategies

Regarding the referendum's. Having lived through both of them and watched as the final tally in 1995 came in at a razor thin 50.58% to stay part of Canada, one must appreciate how civilly the population handled that result. While there were tensions present and some isolated incidents, in large part there were no major disruptions to life and while surely resentments were present amongst the political classes in particular, the general population seemed to have accepted the vote and simply moved on with their lives.

In the years that followed, Quebec was able to secure increasing powers and jurisdictions for itself and the generation that endured the injustices of the past, both real and perceived, and that gave rise to call for separation have largely passed from the active political scene. Now a new generation that has had even greater access and exposure to the world through the internet etc does not carry that same baggage from the past. A poll conducted in 2020, 25 years after that referendum showed only 34% of Quebecers would now support independence and 54% would be against.

More recently if one followed the Freedom Convoy efforts, you were likely to find just as many French speaking Quebecers in Ottawa and on the highway overpasses throughout the province waving Canadian flags in support of the truckers just like in the rest of Canada. (Trudeau finally brough the country together)

Quebec you will find is an interesting place, and frankly I really enjoy living here. If you ever get the urge to visit I'd be glad to show you around.

Not sure that answers your question.

Cheers!

Perfectly answers my question. I wanted an insider's perspective. Thank you!

I do know that equalization payments in Canada strongly helps Quebec and that the praire provinces are bitter. As the economic pie shrinks.....the squabbles might intensify.

 

[Nemesis]

Let’s agree to disagree on the Jewish question. I don’t see that the Taliban argument is an equivalent, they have the support of the population.

No problem. But the Taliban had the support of the population in SOME areas. By no means did they have the support of the population in all areas. Afghanistan had lots of warring factions and tribes.

People with rifles are no laughing matter. History is full of such people mounting incredible resistance (Boers, the Viet Cong, American colonists, etc..). They might struggle to win outright on the battlefield, but they can win wars be wearing down big, expensive armies who run out of money and patience before the will of their opponents is broken.

 

[Josey Wales]

@Nemesis agreed, normal people armed with rifles can stand up against tyrannical governments, your own country is a testament to that when it stood up to my country and gained its independence and flourished to a level no one at the time could have predicted. A fact that I would argue most Brits admire greatly. I certainly do, hence my avatar being a character from a U.S. story. A testament to the reach of American culture.

Having the backing of the population is also key and acts as a force multiplier for the rifleman. Without it, the resistance will fail.

 

[HOA_KSOP]

I would argue that both sides are boiling. The 7 months of riots in 2020 showed that. Both political parties don't even see the voters who voted for the opposite political party as legitimate citizens.

The United States is badly divided. A "perfect storm" series of events could lead to a serious conflict.

So the potential reversal of Roe vs Wade has the Left up in arms, the Left mantra of gun control has the Right up in arms. The perfect storm is at hand.

 

[Bootie]

Its just so darn sad though... Im not sure of the ins and outs but isnt there some folk (50 senators) blocking the law to have background checks of people wanting to buy assault rifles and the like. Anyway lets keep it civil and whatever your thoughts are on gun control the point of the matter is some guy went and murdered a lot of innocent kids and a couple of teachers trying to protect them. There families must be absolutely devastated.

 

[sspoom]

Background checks are already the law of the land. They exist in all 50 states.

 

[StickerEater]

He guys, as someone who is actually graduating high school in the U.S. tomorrow, I feel like I have a pretty valid input.

There are two major reasons why mass shooting happen in schools: Its an easy target, and it usually facilitates mental illness.

The majority of U.S. school campuses don’t even have a security guard, and if they do they are at most armed with a flashlight. My solution: station police guards at schools. We do it for every other major gathering (sports, church, speeches, concerts) why not schools? If police are already at the scene, not only would the gunman be put down quicker, but that gunman may be deterred by the police presence and not come at all.

That however is only a short term solution. The real problem as stated before, is mental illness. The majority of bullying, stress, and depression in teens come from school. I certainly hated going to school, and I know people that were outcasts that hated it even more. Why not change what school stands for? Instead of a place where you memorize and regurgitate information, make it where you actually develope the way YOU want as a person? Teaching kids that they are valued for who they are instead of forcing them to memorize the periodic table would go a long way to stop these kinds of shooting from happening in the future.

 

[sspoom]

He guys, as someone who is actually graduating high school in the U.S. tomorrow, I feel like I have a pretty valid input.

There are two major reasons why mass shooting happen in schools: Its an easy target, and it usually facilitates mental illness.

The majority of U.S. school campuses don’t even have a security guard, and if they do they are at most armed with a flashlight. My solution: station police guards at schools. We do it for every other major gathering (sports, church, speeches, concerts) why not schools? If police are already at the scene, not only would the gunman be put down quicker, but that gunman may be deterred by the police presence and not come at all.

That however is only a short term solution. The real problem as stated before, is mental illness. The majority of bullying, stress, and depression in teens come from school. I certainly hated going to school, and I know people that were outcasts that hated it even more. Why not change what school stands for? Instead of a place where you memorize and regurgitate information, make it where you actually develope the way YOU want as a person? Teaching kids that they are valued for who they are instead of forcing them to memorize the periodic table would go a long way to stop these kinds of shooting from happening in the future.

Well said young man it seems you learned in school instead of just attending

 

[HOA_KSOP]

It's also interesting to note that the City of Chicago has some of the strictest gun control laws in the United States, yet gun violence in that city is off the charts. The easy answer is "let's take away everyone's guns". So I'll just bury mine in the back yard and when the government comes to get them I'll just say I sold them, private sale and 'No, I don't remember who I sold them to". But that aside, the cultural and social issues in this country are the real culprit. The question we really need to be asking is what societal and cultural forces are in play that are making people angry enough to just go out and shoot innocent people. That's what we really need to be addressing in this country. But I have a clue to the issues, you have half of America being blamed for everything that's wrong in this country, pretty much the nearly half of American voters who did not vote for the current administration. You have a government that is actively going after political opponents, you have a media that encourages it and you have not too bright people whose attention span (and IQ) is less than a squirrel's buying Into all the tropes. Welcome to the one-world government America.

 

[HOA_KSOP]

The majority of U.S. school campuses don’t even have a security guard, and if they do they are at most armed with a flashlight. My solution: station police guards at schools. We do it for every other major gathering (sports, church, speeches, concerts) why not schools? If police are already at the scene, not only would the gunman be put down quicker, but that gunman may be deterred by the police presence and not come at all.

I agree with you. Since there are a number of communities that are not letting police enforce laws and/or are not prosecuting lawbreakers, we are essentially paying them to walk around with their hands in their pockets. Assign them to schools.

 

[Ithikial]

There are two major reasons why mass shooting happen in schools: Its an easy target, and it usually facilitates mental illness.

The majority of U.S. school campuses don’t even have a security guard, and if they do they are at most armed with a flashlight. My solution: station police guards at schools.

Congratulations on graduating school and "welcome to the real world".

I'll admit it's funny reading your comment given the vast majority of school campuses across the rest of the developed world don't even need to contemplate the idea employing armed guards. That's how messed up the situation is in parts of the USA for people like myself looking in from the outside - one developed country looking at another. Why anyone inside the USA would think and accept: "Yes this is normal" is what we can't comprehend. I honestly feel sorry for you if these types of security arrangements are part of how you'll remember your school years.

Some USA gun owners say they need their weapons to protect against the government becoming too oppressive. But in the next breath they advocate for that same "evil" Government to step in and provide armed guards and police officers into their schools... with their children. What? Someone please explain to me how that makes any rational sense for a cohort of people fearful about Government overreach to advocate.

We want our guns to protect against a police state. So the solution:

????????

As for live events, yes here in Australia there are security guards but they are armed with pepper spray... maybe. Only a police officer will be armed and as soon as they draw their firearm it's a mountain of paperwork for them. If a police officer drew their pistol at a live music event it would be the first story on local news that night - whether the action was clearly warranted or not. That's normal for the developed free world outside of the USA.

The connection to mental illness is a poor excuse. The USA has mental health issues, Australia has mental health issues - we even now have dedicated Government agencies and elected Ministers for the matter. People with mental health issues can have a complete breakdown in both countries, and indeed anywhere around the world and that may involve going on a rampage. The difference is our mental health sufferers in Australia can't readily get their hands on a semi-automatic rifle with a 30 round magazine. The only other logical conclusion is that more people in the USA suffer from mental health problems than anywhere else in the developed world. Get rid of the weapons from circulation in your society, the same people may go on a rampage but with with their fists or maybe a knife and the chances of harm to others reduces significantly. That is why the gun buy back schemes were used in Australia and more recently New Zealand. Get the volume of firearms out of the community.

I've never served a day in the military. I mention this because only twice have I shot military grade weapons, both while on a range in eastern Europe - under close supervision and as tourist. Yes it was a lot of fun, but after firing an M4 for a grand total of two magazines I was readily hitting the target pretty consistently. If my non-trained* blind ass can do that, any nut job or someone just having a bad day that gets their hands on the civilian variants can far too easily do the same.

* Unless you call Call of Duty and ARMA as training.

 

[Josey Wales]

The problem with the mental illness argument and teens feeling outcast & depressed is that this is more due to the rise of social media than it is to do with what’s taught in the school curriculum. But yes better understanding of these things would help all round.

Every country in the world is dealing with these mental health issues but don’t have the mass shootings on the scale of the US which are the equivalent of a Bataclan attack every 4 months.

As for free gun zones, well of course they’re not going to work when there are other parts of the state and other states that don’t apply the same restrictions. Guns will just infiltrate into the zones from outside.

 

[Rico]

Congratulations on graduating school and "welcome to the real world".

I'll admit it's funny reading your comment given the vast majority of school campuses across the rest of the developed world don't even need to contemplate the idea employing armed guards. That's how messed up the situation is in parts of the USA for people like myself looking in from the outside - one developed country looking at another. Why anyone inside the USA would think and accept: "Yes this is normal" is what we can't comprehend. I honestly feel sorry for you if these types of security arrangements are part of how you'll remember your school years.

Some USA gun owners say they need their weapons to protect against the government becoming too oppressive. But in the next breath they advocate for that same "evil" Government to step in and provide armed guards and police officers into their schools... with their children. What? Someone please explain to me how that makes any rational sense for a cohort of people fearful about Government overreach to advocate.

We want our guns to protect against a police state. So the solution:

????????

As for live events, yes here in Australia there are security guards but they are armed with pepper spray... maybe. Only a police officer will be armed and as soon as they draw their firearm it's a mountain of paperwork for them. If a police officer drew their pistol at a live music event it would be the first story on local news that night - whether the action was clearly warranted or not. That's normal for the developed free world outside of the USA.

The connection to mental illness is a poor excuse. The USA has mental health issues, Australia has mental health issues - we even now have dedicated Government agencies and elected Ministers for the matter. People with mental health issues can have a complete breakdown in both countries, and indeed anywhere around the world and that may involve going on a rampage. The difference is our mental health sufferers in Australia can't readily get their hands on a semi-automatic rifle with a 30 round magazine. The only other logical conclusion is that more people in the USA suffer from mental health problems than anywhere else in the developed world. Get rid of the weapons from circulation in your society, the same people may go on a rampage but with with their fists or maybe a knife and the chances of harm to others reduces significantly. That is why the gun buy back schemes were used in Australia and more recently New Zealand. Get the volume of firearms out of the community.

I've never served a day in the military. I mention this because only twice have I shot military grade weapons, both while on a range in eastern Europe - under close supervision and as tourist. Yes it was a lot of fun, but after firing an M4 for a grand total of two magazines I was readily hitting the target pretty consistently. If my non-trained* blind ass can do that, any nut job or someone just having a bad day that gets their hands on the civilian variants can far too easily do the same.

* Unless you call Call of Duty and ARMA as training.

What @Ithikial said - fully agree.

 

[Hedgehog]

Congratulations on graduating school and "welcome to the real world".

I'll admit it's funny reading your comment given the vast majority of school campuses across the rest of the developed world don't even need to contemplate the idea employing armed guards. That's how messed up the situation is in parts of the USA for people like myself looking in from the outside - one developed country looking at another. Why anyone inside the USA would think and accept: "Yes this is normal" is what we can't comprehend. I honestly feel sorry for you if these types of security arrangements are part of how you'll remember your school years.

Some USA gun owners say they need their weapons to protect against the government becoming too oppressive. But in the next breath they advocate for that same "evil" Government to step in and provide armed guards and police officers into their schools... with their children. What? Someone please explain to me how that makes any rational sense for a cohort of people fearful about Government overreach to advocate.

We want our guns to protect against a police state. So the solution:

????????

As for live events, yes here in Australia there are security guards but they are armed with pepper spray... maybe. Only a police officer will be armed and as soon as they draw their firearm it's a mountain of paperwork for them. If a police officer drew their pistol at a live music event it would be the first story on local news that night - whether the action was clearly warranted or not. That's normal for the developed free world outside of the USA.

The connection to mental illness is a poor excuse. The USA has mental health issues, Australia has mental health issues - we even now have dedicated Government agencies and elected Ministers for the matter. People with mental health issues can have a complete breakdown in both countries, and indeed anywhere around the world and that may involve going on a rampage. The difference is our mental health sufferers in Australia can't readily get their hands on a semi-automatic rifle with a 30 round magazine. The only other logical conclusion is that more people in the USA suffer from mental health problems than anywhere else in the developed world. Get rid of the weapons from circulation in your society, the same people may go on a rampage but with with their fists or maybe a knife and the chances of harm to others reduces significantly. That is why the gun buy back schemes were used in Australia and more recently New Zealand. Get the volume of firearms out of the community.

I've never served a day in the military. I mention this because only twice have I shot military grade weapons, both while on a range in eastern Europe - under close supervision and as tourist. Yes it was a lot of fun, but after firing an M4 for a grand total of two magazines I was readily hitting the target pretty consistently. If my non-trained* blind ass can do that, any nut job or someone just having a bad day that gets their hands on the civilian variants can far too easily do the same.

* Unless you call Call of Duty and ARMA as training.

Some very good logic there mate ....... Nice one