CM: BS DAR Gnarls vs. Artemis258: Art stay out...

I've got quite a few minutes to catch up on, but they've mostly been a little melee of tanks versus multiple RPG teams around my Oplot maneuver group.





But at this point, I am getting thoroughly rope-able with the Oplots complete inability to see anything, even when stationary and overwatching in the correct direction. Like, throwing keyboard through screen level frustration....



So, looking for some advice, because this match has degenerated into a cat and mouse between my last two mobile Oplots, who are complete morons, and (I think?) Arts only other T-90. And I'm pretty damn fed-up with these tanks inability to see squat; it's very likely they'll get picked off piece meal, even with perfect LOS onto the T-90.



(Can you sense how %&%^*& frustrated I am with this??)

So, current situation at minute 32-31; my remaining mobile Oplots have blue (left hand) and grey (right-hand) LOS onto the T-90's eventual firing potion.









It noses out of the afore-mentioned depression it's been skulking, and out of the smoke of my on-going heavy 152mm barrage (surely the continued nearby 152mm explosions would have to some degree hampered the crews efficiency?? we are talking 6 rounds a minute within 50m proximity here).



Anyways, my tanks are static, yet the T-90 shuffles out of the smoke, lasers and fires at my left hand tank. Neither of these idiots even sees the T-90; my left-hander reverses to cover. Of course, I would have understood if it was my tank moving forward and getting picked of by a stationary overwatching enemy tank (which is what happened to Oplot #3). So to have planned to have two tanks in static overwatch, and ye still get shot at by an invisible advancing tank? GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!











So I am half inclined to just Quick both tanks forward, and hope that one of them actually gets a spot and hits the T-90 (which it won't), with the assumption the other one will become a sacrificial junk heap (which they both will). And get this crap over with.

My other inclination is to reverse both of these morons back, not to even bother trying to reposition them with hull-down, cos they'll still get picked off without seeing anything. And let the arty barrage continue. My immobilized Oplot in my backfield, plus a couple of ATGM teams intermittent LOS onto the T-90's current location, but the arty impact dust is making that very intermittent. Translation, they may spot it (as they have been) but won't have LOS long enough to engage. Unlikely to resolve anything, and probably be sitting here till the arty runs out of shells..



Any pointers?



Yours in thorough frustration.
 
I don't really have any sound advice to offer. But, I will join you in your frustration with the oplot spotting ... recent PBEM I played had a whole platoon picked off piecemeal by T90s, with not a single spot from my own armor. I felt I had solid positions too, some stationary several meters deep in heavy forest, or hull-down with good sight-lines. I couldn't quite figure it out, as the oplot should have reasonable thermal optics, but I chalked it up to a case of outclassed equipment and move on.

So I suppose if it were me, I would rather my oplots, fools that they are, die in a glorious bum-rush with the off-chance to get a spot (you do at least have the numbers advantage). Rather than have them turned to burning hulks, as I expect they will if left stationary long enough, while wondering what could have been.
 
Have you tried unbuttoning the TCs? Sure it's risky as all get out, but it can help spotting. You have nothing left to lose at this point. Be daring! :D
 
Thanks @fivefivesix, it's good to know (or is it? :() that it's not just me.

What perplexes me even more; if the Oplots spotting is really that poor because of outdated equipment, I would have hoped this would have been appropriately reflected in their 'price point'. But when I was looking at their cost the other day, I recall they were more expensive (437) than a T-90 (424). What the??

Perhaps I should refrain from playing UKR armour anymore, before I cause myself a frustration-induced heart attack...

Question : bum rush with as @Rambler suggest unbuttoned (though I thought unbuttoned was more useful in WW2 games? The 'optics' in modern supposedly be better for spotting then unbuttoned?) but should I Slow, Normal, Quick? Other?

Definitely not Hunt, as I don't want them stopping to engage something else, leaving the other tank to go solo.
 
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I've understood it similarly to you, @Gnarly ... modern tanks optics should be superior to spotting from an unbuttoned TC. But hey, perhaps on the move you'll be more likely to get a spot, rather than spotting from the confined optic FOV?

As far as hunt, if you put a armor cover arc on both tanks, they shouldn't stop unless they spot the T90, and ignore non-AFV threats. (Doesn't sound like Art has any other AFVs left?) Thats what I would probably do, hunt forward with the armor covered arc.
 
Typically the optics are better, but if they're not working or you're having problems I would unbutton the TCs. It can help, especially if you're that close.
 
Alright, for completeness sake, I better catch up on about 10 minutes of game time.....

Minutes 38-36

As Art describes it, lots of 'Dakka-dakka'. My maneuver team, including the IFV and its dismounting squad, stays put, and puts down a intense cross fire, engaging at least 5 hovering RPG teams to it's front and right, two remnants of AGS teams and other infantry bits and bobs. They seem to be attracted to my tanks like moths to a flame....


Minutes 36-33

I push two of these Oplots and the remounted IFV a little east up the hill to the next treeline band, with the intent of getting better LOS down onto the T-90's hidey hole. The IFV infantry dismount in the treeline, but are savaged to combat ineffectiveness by a close-by hidden PKM.

I push the remaining Oplot a little down the main road, to cover the crossroad better, but it's destroyed by the T-90.

Minute 33-30

The T-90 is spotted advancing across the cross-roads, and lazes one of the Oplots, who furiously backpedals; the T-90's shot falls short, but it quickly dispatches the IFV, which I have stupidly pushed forward too far. As per my previous cranky post, neither Oplot ever saw the T-90, even with static LOS.

The T-90 then retreats back across the road.

A truck goes boom on Art's backfield, but it's irrelevant.

I took the conservative approach at this point, and backed of my tanks, letting the arty (which has been ongoing the whole time) continue to pound the crossroads, hoping for a lucky hit. TBH, I wish I had bum-rushed my remaining two Oplots down the ridge, whilst I still knew where the T-90 was. And finished the match with a bang, one way or the other.

Instead.......

Minutes 30

Another truck goes Boom in Arts backfield. Probbaly my ever reliable northern-most IFV? But again, relevance = 0.

Bored, I pushed one of the two Oplots solo up to the top of Big Hill, to try and position it for a flank look down shot onto the T-90. it took out a few footsloggers on the way, before..

Minute 29

...getting destroyed by an unseen footslogger in the trees.


Summary of the above, at minute 28

Ilruxg2.jpg


From the remaining Oplot's position:

KSLGEYY.jpg



So I've sent off another turn. Whilst the arty is still pounding the cross roads, one of my two ATGM's with intermittent LOS is out of rounds, and the other is down to 2 rounds, and I've got no reloads.

So I've let Art know there will be a Ceasefire forthcoming on the turn after; this cat and mouse business is dreadfully dull... It's a bit like trying to find that one trooper hiding in a Victory Location..
 
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Phew... now that was an intense battle! Death and destruction on both sides!!!!

Firstly, many tanks to Gnarly! This was probably the most exciting Combat Mission game I've played yet!

I thought I'd finish of this AAR with some of my thoughts from the game, given that I haven't had time to flesh out a full one of my own.


Set Up;

From the get-go I knew it was going to be bloody; thermal sights, open ground and the occasional tree? blergh. So much so that I figured buying tanks would be a waste; there would simply be too many angles to cover, and too many opportunities for a sneaky ATGM or RPG... especially given the Ukranians have a shoulder launched variety. The only thing I felt I had going for me was the Hole, that little depression that so thankfully escaped Gnarly's notice for half the game! If I could hide a tank or two down there, I thought they might last long enough to fend off the enemy advance.

So my thoughts at this point were that infantry, supported by IFV's, would be my opponent's deciding factor. To this end I took a basic motor rifle company, well stocked with ATGMs (for the IFVs), and a buttload of mortars. Keeping most of them on-map meant I could have 6 rounds 120mm HE right when I wanted it, no delays, no passing go, no $200. The transports were likewise kept to mostly machinegun-armed BTR's for the same reason; lost of heavy machine guns with good sights. I also (apparently falsely) believed the 14.5 would be sufficient to have a chance of penetrating a BMP. Apparently only the M2's with their Saboted Light Armour Penetrator can manage this feat.

Lesson 1: If you want to hurt an IFV, you have to SLAP them!

Finally, the map presneted only 3 potential crossing maps, the banks too steep for any amphibious crossing. These chokepoints identified, I thought it'd be fun to seed them liberally with mines. @Gnarly your tank flank crossed this minefield totally unmolested! One of my own keyboard-through-screen moments!

Lesson 2: If you want a minefield, build it big. But it's probably a waste.


Purchases: 1 company from a Motor Rifle Battalion, with all their AT asssets, in BTRs with 14.5's
Company and Battalion Mortars, 120mm, on map with Trucks
Company ATGM platoon, on map in BTR's with 30mm
2* T90A's
Deployment wise is pretty much as Gnarly discovered, I didn't have much options for movement (open ground) and many of my troops died in their foxholes.


Contact!

The battle unfolded more or less as I expected, with one notable exception; Gnarly's force was almost exactly the opposite to what I had expected. Rather than face troops, I saw before myself an armored company! Initially I counted on Gnarly to take up 'the armored fist' and advance head long, and I expected to bag a few tanks, have him pull back, and then have a reasonable exchange as he uncovered my positions as they fired, hopefully swapping an atgm team for a tank each time. Not a great plan, needlessly bloody, but with literally nowhere to run it was the best I had. When the missile teams were gone, I would tease the last of his armour onto the mines and ambush them with rpgs...
At this point I figured my transports were toast, and was glad that I'd emptied them of anything seriously useful.

It didn't go that way at all. Instead I watched helplessly as my lines were pummeled into oblivion with direct fire, and the missiles that did get off impacted harmlessly into trees. Nearly every missile team got at least one shot off, yet only one vehicle was hit! I hate trees. I hate trees so much.

Lesson 3: Active Tree Defense is Real and should NEVER be underestimated

I won't recount the dakka fest that followed, it's pretty plain to see what happened. I was amazed how many hits that T90 took! Each tank accounted for 3 Oblots each, and the surviving one still had ammo aplenty. Their survival was due to sneak and peak tactics with the only viable defensive position my side of the map, and I'm bloody glad I took them!

Lesson 4: If more than the barrel of the gun is exposed, you're balls naked to the breeze

The flank battle was really where it was all decided. When I saw that happening I was elated; the moment he drives over those mines, BOOM! they'll be tracked or worse, and I can hide in my hole while he rethinks his strategy! Imagine my surprise when three tanks and a BMP roll right over as if it were a field of daisies.

It was only by the smallest of margins that the surviving T-90, hearing the Infantry crying in despair over the radio being the only distraction from the rolling cacophony of artillery hammering the hull, managed to hold off the advance.

Meanwhile, the young Lieutenant and his team, preparing themselves for their final stand, saw the Oblot roll right up to their position, oblivious, and begin reining fire on what remained on their command.... stealing themselves they mounted the engine decking, hurling grenades into any opening they could find...


From my perspective, it was a valliant end to a desperate fight... though I can understand my opponent's bloody frustration!



Lesson 5: You're not outnumbered, you're just in a target-rich environment


What I Would have done differently:

More Armour. Scrap every BTR in the joint for another T-90. Even a 72. Preferably 2. Push the new two tanks across the river on the north (my left) flank and right up against the defilade. Forget holding the high ground of the hill - too target rich. Make like snakes in the grass. Tighter fire arcs, more surprise.

My biggest mistake: Counting too much on an infantry fight. Not being prepared to counter Armour threats; particularly defending against IR optics. The moment he started blasting my lines, my troops were fixed. Couldn't move an inch. Nearly a hundred dead and half as many wounded will attest to that mistake.

Chief mistake of my opponent:
A really tough fight, and I don't think I could fault my opponent's actions. He held back and plastered me completely. My only thought is that perhaps it was too much Armour; lacking the footslogging support needed to secure ground. and push me back. By the time the tanks and arty had finished with my lines, there wasn't much left to fend off an advance save my lone tank; if there'd been infantry supporting that flank I think it could have really turned the tide. There was almost no-where to hide the damned things either; after turn 3 I knew pretty much exactly where my opponents tanks were at all times thanks to the thermals on my tanks and the positioning of my scouts. It really was not a tank friendly map.


A phenomenal game Gnarly. I'd recommend him as a challenging and reliable opponent any time! As always, I'm up for a rematch whenever you are mate!


Art.
 
Yes Gnarly is a tough basterd. Beware of his psyops... :)
Good game both of you

:D
 
In the morning following the ceasefire, the Ukrainians listened to the unmistakable sounds of the Russians withdrawl reverberating across the river. Lieutenant Vodnik, commander of the surviving Oplot from the maneuver group, ordered the follow on engineering teams to check for mines around the river crossings; he was stunned at his luck, when informed of the 3 mines on the east side of the southern ford that his team had managed to completely avoid....

Touring the Russian lines, he was horrified at the carnage and devastation, in particular the sheer number of corpses that had been left behind.. In places, foxholes were filled with body parts and gore from it seemed almost entire teams. The 'Hollow' from which the pair of T-90's lurked with such with impunity, contained 3 destroyed BTR's in addition to the burnt-out T-90.

Nevertheless, the Lieutenant was gratified that his erstwhile commander, LG Verynydub, had been right about an OP in the buildings at the minor objective; that first artillery barrage look to have caught an entire ATGM team, HQ and infantry squad in its barrage:

jmWz0xU.jpg


Additionally the follow-up barrage on the remaining buildings there caught most of another infantry team with a single shell:

RbW7z9F.jpg


The Lieutenant estimated he'd faced about 6 mortar teams, of which one was found in it's entirety shredded at the base of their foxhole:

QKjm7xN.jpg




Great match @Artemis258 as always!

Lessons (re-) learnt on my side (see the first post!):

#1 - BS games with armour really need a map size x2 larger that the force size. Otherwise it ends up be an outright pew-pew from near each forces' baselines, which really then is a function of technology, with little if any room for maneuvering. And without maneuvering, the Oplots are simply outgunned by T-90's. But that was all my fault (again!)....

#2 - Need to pay more attention to the actually weapons chosen by the antitank teams; I think I had prehistoric recoiless rifles and AT-4's, both of which got hits, but didn't get any penetrations. Instead Ski'f and Corsars (thanks @Abbasid111)

#3 - I also need to think more about smoke and thermals, and trying to use BRM-1K's (thanks @Abdolmartin)

#4 - Lastly, more recce of my opponents terrain. I completely missed the 'Hollow', and even a single TRP in there could have made the difference. As it was, I still have no idea what (if anything) I could have done about those T-90's; any Oplot trying to get LOS into there died trying, and there was no way I could get the FO to get LOS onto it. And with the Oplots poor spotting, even trying to advance a tank up for 15 seconds to hull-down with area fire into the target, then reverse, is not going to work, if it takes the tank over 30 seconds to spot into there.

I'd love to agree to @Arts comment about my lack of infantry, but if I'd sacrificed even just two tanks, I wouldn't have gotten across the river in the first place. Now, if I had the points for even just two more squads and IFV's, without losing anything else, who knows?!? :shocknaz:

Would have been interesting to see what would have happened if a certain tank way up the top of Big Hill had actually been buttoned when it bumped into that command squad (or was that squad also packing anti-tank Art?) BTW @Artemis258, I'm sure our audience would love to see some pics, or even better, some video of that little frag session your command team conducted? I most certainly would!:p

Thanks all for tuning in! @Mr_Centipede I think it's your turn next! :cheers:
 
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Very nice AAR to you both! On a side note ive alway found it frustrating to use the UKR tank. The 64bv and bulat seems almost always be more blind than a WW2 tank.... Its not unusual, i could even say its almost normal to have a 64(bv/bulat) being fired at by a bmp-2 with its autocannon for more than one minute and he will never see it even if its optice are still working well. And in tank vs tank i have no idea what so ever on how to use them in def and even more on the offensive. Same thing for the russian tank against us. Not that i want to perform like tank that are more expensive/modern just not being blind!
 
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