The Punic Wars

[Calminos]

I don't know if this has been discussed before or not, as the threads are rather massive, and I haven't really been able to read through every single one.
I know Julius Caesar's campaigns or Augustus' civil wars are more popular, but I would like to discuss this, as it involves a few great battles and even some nearly impossible victories, and a few great generals(Hannibal, for one).
Anyone interested?

 

[Bootie]

Im always up for discussing and learning. Best place to start is the Wiki description of what The Punic Wars were.

The Punic Wars were a series of three wars fought between Rome and Carthage from 264 BC to 146 BC. At the time, they were probably the largest wars that had ever taken place. The term Punic comes from the Latin word Punicus (orPoenicus), meaning "Carthaginian", with reference to the Carthaginians' Phoenician ancestry. The main cause of the Punic Wars was the conflicts of interest between the existing Carthaginian Empire and the expanding Roman Republic. The Romans were initially interested in expansion via Sicily (which at that time was a cultural melting pot), part of which lay under Carthaginian control. At the start of the first Punic War, Carthage was the dominant power of the Western Mediterranean, with an extensive maritime empire. Rome was a rapidly ascending power in Italy, but it lacked the naval power of Carthage. By the end of the third war, after more than a hundred years and the loss of many hundreds of thousands of soldiers from both sides, Rome had conquered Carthage's empire, completely destroyed the city, and become the most powerful state of the Western Mediterranean.

With the end of the Macedonian Wars – which ran concurrently with the Punic Wars – and the defeat of the Seleucid King Antiochus III the Great in the Roman–Seleucid War (Treaty of Apamea, 188 BC) in the eastern sea, Rome emerged as the dominant Mediterranean power and one of the most powerful cities in classical antiquity. The Roman victories over Carthage in these wars gave Rome a preeminent status it would retain until the 5th century AD.

I always like following this by a what if?

If Rome hadn't succeeded what effect would that have on society today... in my opinion the whole demographics of Europe would be completely different. As your from India would it have made any impact on society in that region?

 

[Calminos]

Not really, except the fact that English wouldn't exist, or at least, wouldn't be as widespread.
Also, I HAVE studied this part of history in detail.
If you wish, I could give a complete breakdown of every battle.
Would that be fine?

 

[Bert Blitzkrieg]

Feel free, but keep it short(ish) i.e. readable.

 

[Bootie]

By all means go ahead.

 

[Calminos]

I will break every battle down into one post to make it more readable.
It will take a little time, however, due to the largeness of the time period covered and due to the fact that I have to give tests. Grrr.

 

[Floki]

I always like following this by a what if?

If Rome hadn't succeeded what effect would that have on society today... in my opinion the whole demographics of Europe would be completely different. As your from India would it have made any impact on society in that region?

If if's and buts were candies and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas.


That's a good question and I think the answer is that we would not have an "FGM" club because most likely computers and the internet would not be invented. I wouldn't be living in Canada because Europeans would most likely not have "discovered" the new world.

The Punic Wars were a few hundred years before the birth of Christ so one of our major world religions would not exists and those who live in Muslim lands would still be worshiping Zoroaster.

I have a feeling that the scientific revolution would not have happened as it did in Europe and we'd not have any problems with the Greenhouse effect.

 

[Calminos]

Sergeant Major Floki brings up some interesting ideas.

 

[Calminos]

Though, he is correct.
Had The Punic Wars resulted in a loss for Rome, then Constantine would never happen, leaving Christianity not nearly as widespread as it is today.

 

[Bert Blitzkrieg]

If if's and buts were candies and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

The Punic Wars were a few hundred years before the birth of Christ so one of our major world religions would not exist

Only a non-Christian will think so.

 

[Bootie]

Lets not open the religion debate... Lets talk about the battles.

 

[Calminos]

Bert, it's not supposed to be insulting. Christianity is widespread because of Rome, ie, Emperor Constantine adopting it as the official religion of Rome, and the first Ecclesian Council, which decided what was orthodox for Rome.
Also, Bootie, As I said, it'll take time, as I have to, unfortunately, give tests which will decide my getting into Law School.

 

[Cargol]

Bert, it's not supposed to be insulting. Christianity is widespread because of Rome, ie, Emperor Constantine adopting it as the official religion of Rome, and the first Ecclesian Council, which decided what was orthodox for Rome.
Also, Bootie, As I said, it'll take time, as I have to, unfortunately, give tests which will decide my getting into Law School.

Basically ,Constantine the Great was much more affiliated with Constantinople than with Rome.Rome was in steady decline and this can easily be proved by the fact that Western Roman Empire which had Rome as its capital was abolished some 140 years after Constantine rose in power, while Byzantine Empire which many historians are claiming that started by Constantine the Great lasted for more than 1.000 years.

 

[Calminos]

Still, there would be no Byzantine Empire had Rome suffered here.
At this time, Rome was concentrated in Italy amd Northern Africa.

 

[Cargol]

Still, there would be no Byzantine Empire had Rome suffered heree
At this time, Rome was concentrated in Italy amd Northern Africa.

Byzantine Empire was more Greek than Roman and given the fact that Punic wars were mainly/mostly fought in the area of the Western Roman Empire I could easily claim that If Rome had lost Punic wars Byzantine Empire would have been established earlier than it actually did.

 

[Calminos]

But, it was still Roman.
It would have been Greek then, with its languages and culture.
Half the things we know wouldn't actually happen.

 

[Cargol]

But, it was still Roman.
It would have been Greek then, with its languages and culture.
Half the things we know wouldn't actually happen.

Byzantine Empire was Roman merely by title, basically cause ths was the way to be the legitimate successor of the Roman Empire.It's "official'' language was Greek and it's religion was the Christian religion (up to 1054 where the Eastern and Western Christian churches split.)From 1054 Empire's religion was Christian Orthodox.

 

[Bert Blitzkrieg]

Bert, it's not supposed to be insulting.

Don't worry. I wasn't insulted.



(P.S. I really believe, that I don't have to put up for my Lord Jesus Christ. If He thinks that necessary, He can do that way better then me)

 

[Floki]

Only a non-Christian will think so.

I'm actually a practicing Catholic

I started my post with what I thought was a humorous quote "if if's and buts" meaning that the answer to Bootie's question was beyond all reasonable explanations. I just started to write things from the top of my head, I really had no ulterior motive otherwise. No hidden meaning or criticism if you know what I mean.

The discussion focusing on Byzantium/Rome is interesting but let's try to imagine what Constantinople would be like if it were not for the Romans who defeated the Iranians/Persians/Mithradates in the first century B.C.?

Again if there were no Rome....then.....if if's and buts.... LOL

Life as we know it would not exist.

It is cool to think about this just to see how much influence the Roman Empire had on the world.

As a student of history I am looking forward to @Calminos discussion of the Punic wars because I don't know too much about it.

:cheers:

 

[Cargol]

I'm actually a practicing Catholic
The discussion focusing on Byzantium/Rome is interesting but let's try to imagine what Constantinople would be like if it were not for the Romans who defeated the Iranians/Persians/Mithradates in the first century B.C.?

The defeat of Parthians by the Romans only weakened Parthian rule in the area of Messopotamia and led ultimatelly to the creation of the Sassanid Empire so what you are calling "Persians'' were barelly beaten.Byzantine-Sassanide wars went on for almost 250 years.
My point is that the conditions that created Byzantine Empire were allready in place (geographical position, common language and culture, a new religion which was supposed to unite the new with the old,a wealthy elite which took the reigns of the new formed empire.All what was needed was a catalyst (Konstantine the Great).
If Rome was beaten in Punic wars, Konstantine probably wouldnt be the Emperor but Byzantine Empire would still have been created.
Same with Christianity, conditions for the expansion of the new religion were in place so its expansion was inevitable.