Battle 3# - Day 1 Dawn (South) PhilM

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Good news! I just tested own mines on own vehicles and infantry. They DO affect own vehicles and infantry. So that is a useful information for your battle @PhilM. If they can cross the fords then there must be some kind of path through minefields or even no minefields at all. So keep your eyes open and try to spot and mark the save paths through enemy minefields! Maybe our breaching point for this or the next turn is right away at this location!
 
Information so far ... the vehicles crossing the fords now spotted as one Kubelwagen with team onboard over each ford. (Though a third (?) one now following, spotted still over on the other side of the river, approaching the fords ...)

Given the speed of their approach and absence of pauses for spotting, they seem to be doing "recon by death": so far they have revealed only the split squad, sniper and ATR teams on my outer fringes which got them.

BUT we may be in trouble if they are a harbinger of things to come: the Germans seem to have developed a new model of Kubelwagen with panzer-standard armour, and a forcefield cover for their open top: dread to think what the Panthers will be like :D:D) ...

One PPSh armed split team had begun to make penetrating hits on one KW at the end of the previous turn; it then spent some 20 seconds of this turn hitting the moving KW from c. 30 metres (below) ... which had absolutely no effect on either the KW or the team ..



It wasn't until the KW ran into the next split team that they were stopped, with grenades ...



The other KW similarly ran through penetrating fire from other teams with no effect on vehicle or team, though this one did fire back ...



This one moved on and then dismounted; but the team and the KW are spotted and pinned, and about to be given the coup de grace (hopefully!) in the next turn.
 
Good reports PhilM! Keep up the good work! Very interesting to see the campaign unfold! I still hope we got a good opportunity to occupy the enemy square at the end of the battle. There is not much room to hide for the Germans but we will see if reeinforcements are on the way...
 
The second of the two initial KWs, plus the team it carried, were duly despatched in the (then) next turn, as forecast above ...

Not much happened in the next few minutes, but it is intriguing ...

I have lost sight of the third ("second wave") scout KW after it crossed the river: this one (?) seems to be adopting a much more stealthy approach after the loss of the first two ...

Now have two separate "explosions" ... one of smoke, one some sort of small calibre HE (grenades?), where my guys can see the resulting smoke / explosions but NOT the units firing them ... no sound of them being mortar / arty fire, so I think I have two more recon teams trying to ease their way into my positions.

I am trying gradually and carefully to expand the areas I have eyes on, without giving away any information on my forces as far as possible ...

Considering so little has happened, it is becoming a very gripping experience ... a different experience altogether to "normal" games, knowing that the other side have multiple aims and different minds at work, as well as, of course, the multiple aims we have, and the need to consider "what next?" ...

I'm hooked ... :)
 
Hey guys, a development ...!! Need some thoughts and info ...

Another turn from DasTiger ... incoming now looks like mortar fire, though not sure what is spotting it, as I can see no units of his at all ... Also, looks - in light of what follows below - that it is just some opportunistic potting at locations at which he thinks I have men, from me killing the KWs earlier, rather than something "bigger".

I say this because he has just sent me a PM saying:

"In our Rad game I have completed my mission and have no plans to attack. I will of course defend if attacked but I hate to string this on for over a hundred files if you wish to finish it also and move on to the next phase."

FWIW I feel he may have told me too much for his own good (assuming it is not "disinformation" ...); but it was his choice to tell me!

Only 11 minutes of the 90 have gone: what does this mean? (I replied to say I would ponder this, with you, and get back to him as to what I was going to do.)

My own thoughts so far?

What exactly does "completed my mission" mean? What objectives (touch, etc??) did he have / can he have had? I can now of course easily "occupy" my three objectives. (Though I do still have to put some troops on the ground on the supply route: I left it unoccupied at first as a "just in case" for our air strike ...). Given his lack of progress to my side of the map - as far as I can tell!! - I don't see how he can have reached his furthermost touch objective, if he had one, or I would have seen his forces doing so??? So, if we were to finish now, what is the mission outcome for us both, and how does that feed into the next turn?

But ... we do clearly want to take possession of the fords sometime soon. Subject to the point above about what the outcome of this first mission would mean in territory terms, we seem to have two basic choices with regard to the fords:

- the 'bird in the hand" approach, and take advantage of the opportunity we *SEEM* to have to get across them now? I say seem because, although (even without the intended T-34 arrivals) it looks like I have substantially more forces than he has this time around, there may well be some as yet unspotted nasty surprises in the woods on the far side of the river overlooking the fords, and getting across may not be as straightforward as it appears so far.

- the stealth approach. Taking (if I can!) the fords this time will presumably attract a heavy counter attack here in the next turn? Might a simple agreement to "fold" here this time, mirroring his approach, give the impression that I am simply screening our left flank, whilst our main attacks are in the two other battles ... and thus *possibly* allow us a bigger and easier (i.e. less heavily defended) attack here NEXT time??? (But the contrary argument is of course that it will allow them to reinforce a currently weak (?) position ...)

It seems like the choice might depend on how the other two battles go, and if e.g. we need this route as a main attack after the others are stalled, or if this route is merely a diversion (and making them use resources to counter a diversion) whilst the others proceed more or less successfully?? It does not seem unreasonable to wait until we know how the other battles are going before we decide? (And we cannot anyway move on to the next phase until all three battles are concluded?)

Making my brain hurt ... :D
 
PhilM said:
Hey guys, a development ...!! Need some thoughts and info ...
Making my brain hurt ... :D
Click to expand...

Exactly the complexities and ongoing problems Odin and I were aiming for. :D

1398108298386.jpg
 
Interesting, I think he's saving troops. I reckon he has nothing substantial on his side. If this battle ends now then the Axis preserve men and ammo for the next battle. Why would they ask to end the battle so quickly? If not to preserve their units.
I think you should try to probe further maybe, then again it could be a double bluff. :confused:
 
@Ithikial ... Are you willing to clarify for me some points about the campaign rules, and how they would apply in this situation ... but only in principle of course, without saying anything that is beyond what we should know on this side about the other forces and plans.

I have read and re-read the rules (!), but still (!) would just appreciate answers / confirmation on some "what ifs" ...

Do all the maps have (have to have?) an "exit zone" for both sides? So, does DasTiger HAVE TO HAVE an exit zone through which he may remove his troops? Or is it possible that he may NOT have one? And if so, I COULD possibly kill all his guys / force a surrender?

IF we "stay where we are", and both (?) of us have met our objectives, then terrain-occupation wise it would mean we occupy the terrain we did at the beginning??

What do I have to do, within the CM game, to "own" the fords by the end of the game? If, say, I move across the fords themselves but cannot push DT out of the woods, and he retains troops there at the end, then what determines who has which terrain for the next round? Can I "win" the whole map (i.e. terrain-wise, not battle-win wise) without occupying it ALL this time?

What result, within the CM game, do I have to aim for to "own" the whole map as a start point for the next period?

You willing to answer / comment on (and make sense of!) any of that?
 
PhilM said:
@Ithikial ... Are you willing to clarify for me some points about the campaign rules, and how they would apply in this situation ... but only in principle of course, without saying anything that is beyond what we should know on this side about the other forces and plans.

I have read and re-read the rules (!), but still (!) would just appreciate answers / confirmation on some "what ifs" ...

Do all the maps have (have to have?) an "exit zone" for both sides? So, does DasTiger HAVE TO HAVE an exit zone through which he may remove his troops? Or is it possible that he may NOT have one? And if so, I COULD possibly kill all his guys / force a surrender?

IF we "stay where we are", and both (?) of us have met our objectives, then terrain-occupation wise it would mean we occupy the terrain we did at the beginning??

What do I have to do, within the CM game, to "own" the fords by the end of the game? If, say, I move across the fords themselves but cannot push DT out of the woods, and he retains troops there at the end, then what determines who has which terrain for the next round? Can I "win" the whole map (i.e. terrain-wise, not battle-win wise) without occupying it ALL this time?

What result, within the CM game, do I have to aim for to "own" the whole map as a start point for the next period?

You willing to answer / comment on (and make sense of!) any of that?
Click to expand...

The exit zones was an interesting point between Odin and myself. Odin was adamant he wanted them as it gives players the option of moving forces to safety if the player decides. Moving forces to an exit zone will shift them to a nearby campaign square at the end of the battle. There are no Destroy objectives used in this campaign so any use of exit zones don't equal a point score for either side.

Where your forces end up at the end of the CM battle will be roughly implemented on the campaign map for future turns. The only exception to this is recon missions where it's assumed your forces head back to their start lines after the battle. It's active patrolling and intel gathering after all.
 
Great report and good development of the situation. Your assessments are very good and all this also makes my brain hurt :).
First of all I think this is really a good development of the situation. Although the PM from DasTiger could be a bluff I don't think so. Maybe the plan was just to get some intel on us. If the battle is ended (now or later) they will see the whole battlefield and thus all of our units without having to fight and loose much. Maybe they even fulfilled some or all touch objectives but I doubt. And it doesn't matter much. They will receive all information about us via the end screen.
I am with nathangun and our alternative plan should now be implemented. Even without the reinforcements there is a good chance to get hold of the fords. According to the rules we have to "own" the square with our forces. So in this case you not just have to get hold of the fords by themselves but the whole square to a high degree. So yes, I think you have to drive them out of the small patch of woods. Have a look at the campaign map in our Dropbox folder to see what actually belongs to the square with the fords. There can't be much units hiding as they can just be in the small patch of woods!
Time is in our favour so I think try to begin scouting forward towards the fords with cheap vehicles and infantry and try to identifiy enemy positions and try to kill them before actually pushing over the fords.
I also thought about the possibility of a strong counterattack next turn on this exposed square if we can get hold of it but this would happen every time we can get over the river. Maybe we can also cross the river at the center then we have 2 locations. If you ask me it doesn't matter when we cross the river we will be attacked nonetheless. So my not attack this turn? I have no objections.
Go get 'em! With patience but get 'em! :)
 
Strachwitz said:
Great report and good development of the situation. Your assessments are very good and all this also makes my brain hurt :).
First of all I think this is really a good development of the situation. Although the PM from DasTiger could be a bluff I don't think so. Maybe the plan was just to get some intel on us. If the battle is ended (now or later) they will see the whole battlefield and thus all of our units without having to fight and loose much. Maybe they even fulfilled some or all touch objectives but I doubt. And it doesn't matter much. They will receive all information about us via the end screen.
I am with nathangun and our alternative plan should now be implemented. Even without the reinforcements there is a good chance to get hold of the fords. According to the rules we have to "own" the square with our forces. So in this case you not just have to get hold of the fords by themselves but the whole square to a high degree. So yes, I think you have to drive them out of the small patch of woods. Have a look at the campaign map in our Dropbox folder to see what actually belongs to the square with the fords. There can't be much units hiding as they can just be in the small patch of woods!
Time is in our favour so I think try to begin scouting forward towards the fords with cheap vehicles and infantry and try to identifiy enemy positions and try to kill them before actually pushing over the fords.
I also thought about the possibility of a strong counterattack next turn on this exposed square if we can get hold of it but this would happen every time we can get over the river. Maybe we can also cross the river at the center then we have 2 locations. If you ask me it doesn't matter when we cross the river we will be attacked nonetheless. So my not attack this turn? I have no objections.
Go get 'em! With patience but get 'em! :)
Click to expand...

OK, a few follow on questions:

1. Just to be *absolutely* sure: the general message ("Go get 'em!") is pretty clear, but there is a typo (?) in your near final sentence

"So my not attack this turn?" I presume this should be a rhetorical question, "So WHY not attack this turn", which has the answer "there is no reason not to attack this turn" ...?? Just want to be sure that the decision, without reservation, is to go ahead!

2. On the campaign map / CM map terrain we need to occupy issue: I'm assuming I need to occupy the two "red" squares H11 and I12, and crucially the fords and woods square, I11 ... This latter square is pretty clearly identifiable on the CM battle map from the terrain; if I can get all the way to the map edge in that square the "ownership" will be clearly decided I assume. But I was wondering how it is decided if - say - that terrain is still disputed (though hopefully not!)? Is it Ithikial's decision who owns it, if it is not clear cut from the battle?

3. What is the meaning / potential impact of the Axis unit counter shown in I10?? I am assuming that they are additional (?) to the forces (in I11) that I am now already facing in the battle? And if so, are they (those in I10) available as potential Axis reinforcements into I11 during this battle? And, what potential size / strength are they (insofar as we can tell given FOW ...), from that counter? Infantry only, no armour?
 
Another question, probably for @Ithikial ...

Given this started as an Axis probe (?) and I have defensive "Occupy" objectives, if by the end of the battle I am around / over the fords and the Axis forces are (!) pinned back in I11 (at least), do I still have physically to "occupy" my objectives with units on the ground? Or is it taken as given that, having moved across the whole map and now occupying the river terrain, my occupy objectives at my start point are secured without me physically occupying them??
 
@PhilM :
1.Yes, this was a typo :). Sorry autocorrection on my smartphone sometime is dumb. You are free to scout ahead and if opposition is light try to get hold of the square with the fords. I suppose this a put great chance to get maybe get a bridgehead across the river. Both other battles are not clear what is ahead of us so maybe yours is the big chance by chance.

2. Finally if not all enemy forces are destroyed it is decided by the GMs discretion. So my guess is if you are clearly the one with the best positions and majority of forces the squares should be ours (H11,I11,I12)

3.Yes the units in I10 can be potential reinforcements. The counter most possibly stands for a company as infantry has tone company size on counters. Tanks shouldn't be there as there is not counter. But this unit maybe is not the only one. There must be units we can't see and these ones could also enter the battle for reinforcements. Tank units included. So we can never be sure. But your thoughts are good and need to be considered. I never thought about the possibility of reinforcements in this battle. Maybe it is just a fancy trick to lure us out in the open and get caught by surprise by some reeinforcements. But the zone to enter the battle is very small and quite open. So I doubt this is a trick. But that is not for sure. The best possibility could be to wait until 5:30 AM to launch the scout and attack mission. That way we see at least for the first two reinforcements possibilities if there are some or not. But this means you have to play for another 15 minutes with not much things to do. Quite boring but maybe the best choice. What do you think? Shall we wait a bit?
 
I am minded to press on rather than wait:

- I need to deploy my guys to get them into position and formation to advance, and that will take a little while. I also want to deploy my remaining mortars, and then spot and plot some fire missions for them to soften up the ford foxholes and smoke the tree line. All of that will take some time ...

- I intend to take my time anyway, and not rush ...

- I think a Panther (say) could be hidden in the trees after it arrived as a reinforcement, so waiting until the time when it might arrive is no guarantee that I would see it anyway before it gave me a nasty surprise ...

- the LOS - or rather the lack of it! - on the map is oddly variable anyway. The map *looks* mostly flat, but on closer inspection has lots of little humps and bumps that hide areas from view: so again, waiting for a potential Axis reinforcement period is no guarantee that I would spot them anyway when they arrive ...

Taking all of those things together, I think I might as well just press on methodically and "play it as it comes", hoping for no major surprises.

I will continue to report back on progress and any developments!
 
An update ... though not much to report, hence no screenshots ...

Only enemy sighting has been (another) confirmed sighting of a third enemy KW and scout team ... this time I saw it scuttling back across the river at one of the fords, shortly after the first two were destroyed. It was out of effective range of my guys that spotted it, so not fired on. Has now disappeared back into the trees over the river ...

A bit more sporadic mortar fire arriving, but no hits ... seems to be on "likely" locations rather than my units being spotted. (My casualties so far, two men from an earlier burst of mortar rounds.)

Problems?

Well, the LOS is tricky on this map. Lots of "What! I cannot see there from here!!" type moments; even more than usual (e.g. the face of the slope across the river from me is apparently invisible ... :rolleyes: ). Hence I'm a little worried that me not seeing things doesn't mean that they're not there (!!).

And my usual bete noir: my mortar fire. I have 6 on map mortars, all are deployed with fully spotted missions, spotters unsurpressed, called FFE (as far as I can tell from the Russian voice messages!!), etc. etc. Of the 6 missions being fired, number on target: 1 (!!!) And that 1 on target is the most speculative / least likely target area. The other 5 missions are scattered all over the place. If things don't improve, I may well end up moving on the fords as if I had never had the mortars, which is a bit frustrating...

But no disasters yet anyway! :)
 
Although not much happened: Great read! The atmosphere the campaign creates is just intriguing! I am hooked!
Too bad the mortars are so damned inaccurate. Maybe the crews are green units?
 
Strachwitz said:
Although not much happened: Great read! The atmosphere the campaign creates is just intriguing! I am hooked!
Too bad the mortars are so damned inaccurate. Maybe the crews are green units?
Click to expand...

Of the 6 mortar units, 4 are regular and 2 are green. I can see that the green units would take longer, and more spotting rounds, to get the correct range and azimuth in response to the spotters' corrections: but surely the spotters wouldn't (shouldn't!) call the missions "FFE" if they aren't on target??? (Of the 6 spotters, 5 are regular and 1 veteran ...)

And speaking too soon of "no disasters" ...: this minute ended with "our" (!!) IL 2 Sturmovik beginning to spray one of my ISU 122s, plus its riding infantry squad, with 20mm (?) cannon fire. No hits / casualties from the first few rounds in the last seconds of this turn, but there are already dozens more rounds in the air and on their way, which will reach the target in the next turn. Ho hum ... :mad:
 
Damn! In CMRT air support is more like Russian roulette :-(. For my battle (which should start on tires day when Odin is back) this is my worst fear...
 
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