Simple Question But I Bet The Answer Is Not So Simple

[Shady Side]

How to best use the Russians in CMBS? What are they supposed to be able to beat the US at. The old sayings like "the Red Army" is an arty army with a lot of tanks in it rings very true in CMCW. So does the Soviets doctrine of throwing numbers at NATO until somebody somewhere breaks thru. Quick Battle unit prices reflect this as Soviet formations are cheaper than US equivalent formations cost so you get a backed in numerical superiority in both formations and support both arty and air. So that clearly leads you to know your supposed to blast every possible enemy on map with arty and then use your numbers to overwhelm them.

In CMBS this is not true. The formation prices are much closer to the US so they dont have the baked in number edge. So are we supposed to use them like the US? So that leads to playing like the US but with inferior equipment...... what could possibly go wrong there?!?!

I have owned and played the game for years and beaten all the scenarios and both available campaigns but most if not all them are Rus v UKR. Recently started playing more H2H and it just appears to be very hard to put together a template of how to fight and win with Russia. The only clear advantage they have is not something they do well but a lack of the US systems to counter drones. But what actual good does that do. Knowing your flank is about to be blown to hell and gone does no good at all if you cant stop whats coming. Sure they are great to spot for arty with but 10 and 15 minute call in times plus the fact that spotting shells and a huge advanced warning you your opponent. As the US player in a couple games I allowed myself to get held up in choke points and artyed cost me one game. In other games I have going I will admit it is uncomfortable knowing your being watched. but being aware choke points to get held in and keeping a sometimes sharp eye out for spotting rounds I dont feel in any danger of losing those games.

It is easy enough to fit a US plan into a template. You have better spotting. Your crews shoot straight. You ammo kills what it hits. Your arty is super fast. Your soldiers are well disciplined but you dont have many of them. So you approach a battle knowing you hold advantages in all that. You look for ways to apply that to the enemy and you hit that big red button. Fit me a winning Russian plan into some sort of template.......

 

[ALBY]

I’m in for an answer here.

Also, Russian infantry needs their BMP. So how to fight effectively with them? You need to keep HQ close too I think. How does this work in the game ? I’ve yet to nail it.

I think the firepower of the BMP with 100mm gun and that damn auto cannon are key. But it’s not simple getting those things in a position to fight without them being destroyed as they are so easily killed, even by US 25 mm therm grenades.

 

[Clockwork]

If I remember correctly, they still use a form of mass warfare. Slamming your enemy with as much as you can to keep his head down while advancing. It's still pretty much the same as the old Soviet doctrine with minor changes to account for the more modern battlespace.

 

[Brille]

I haven't played Black Sea that much yet and I don't know much about current Russian doctrine but as you can see in actual footage of the war in Ukraine they seem to go the "mass assault" route like clockwork said... and taking heavy casualties doing so.

So considering that you don't have the masses in combat mission and don't have a bigger campaign going ,where this would count in any way, I would suggest not to take that path entirely.

My take would be to hide the vehicles and tanks in ditches, behind dense forests or buildings and only drive them out for a short time to hit something specifically, only to drive them back few seconds later. Let your infantry do the scouting with as few men as possible (squad splitting). Don't go for tank or even ifv duels if you don't have to. If you have to, make it at least a ratio 3 to 1 but try to hit from different sides if possible.
If you have to move forward, use ever dent and obstacle in the path that keeps you out of sight.
In the defence set ambushes at close range and make the enemy armor come to you. You should try to avoid the frontal arc of those American armor because that's were their spotting ability is the strongest.

This would be my tactic in every combat mission game to be honest with slight alterations to the actual time frame.

If you have the superior armor, gun and optics, you can stand on that hill in overwatch position, waiting for any fool to walk/drive into sight. The Russians have neither of these, (at least in contrast to the americans), so they have to be a lot more sneaky and a hell lot more carefully. Especially because every branch of the US military have something to kill tanks at long range.

You can read it often that players will roll out their tanks for like 10-15 seconds and drive to safety again because that is the rough aiming processtime of a Javelin/tow.

So in general the Russians are just a beefed up syrian army if you want to compare it with shock force.

 

[Artkin]

In my experience defense encounters are really the only way to go. Lots of use using the hide command + tiny target arcs to sneak your troops around. Use houses and areas of dense woods with dense bushes. underneath it for ambush locations. Use every single house that has a wall or roof blown out, and stick a rpg-7 team in there. In the modern titles definitely have an area your teams can freely sneak around in - in case they get spotted and hit with artillery (Assuming you were as careful as you could be with them).

Russians have little chance on smaller maps, your only hope is to catch US forces while theyre on the move in that case. Honestly the US are so overpowered that I never play with them. And if I do I NEVER use APS. The double layered ERA is enough.

 

[Artkin]

If I remember correctly, they still use a form of mass warfare. Slamming your enemy with as much as you can to keep his head down while advancing. It's still pretty much the same as the old Soviet doctrine with minor changes to account for the more modern battlespace.

I agree this seems to be the solution - recon by fire and blow everything with contact in it.to smithereens. The T-72 lacks a substantial amount of HE, it's something like a measly 14 or 18 round load. In this instance it makes sense why the BMP-2 was replaced with the horrible BMP-3.

 

[Shady Side]

I would like to thank everybody. After a few pbem games from US and Russian side let me take a crack at answering my own question.
1-understand and accept that you are against the apex predator of this game so it will not be a fair fight you can do everything "right" and lose....
2-understand that unit for unit u will be out spotted and out gunned... your guys will miss shots theirs wont.... u will connect on shots and the unit u shot will then kill u.... u will not do the same if they shoot u than your dead..
3-understand the equipment u have and more importantly how it matches up vs the US-(a) bmp3 is worse than useless the 100mm gun is low velocity, takes forever to reload, only thing about it that is good is air bursting shell on infantry.. there for use only bmp2, bmp2m, or btr, the 30mm autocannon is pretty good but either is still an underdog to the bradley your sure to be against so the amount of these IFVs to take is highly dependent on mission and estimated enemy force-- (b) your best tank T90a.m. is way over matched by abrams,,, so is your T72 option but the key here is your not that much worse off with a T72 than u are with a T90 regardless how much better the T90 is over the T72 you are better off buying T72 and using the savings elsewhere-- (c)APS will in the right circumstance knock down both Javelin and TOW2... but in most circumstances APS wont help so it is an insurance policy not worth the cost(d) this is of corse map and mission dependent but even in attacks and meeting engagements a good rule of thumb is at least 1 squad per platoon cut the I.F.V. use a supply truck instead and while the bmp2 the the clear cut better option over the bmp3.. using BTR's in there intended battle taxi role should also be considered for the point saving that can be used in other places-- all those point saving will bring the question what are u gonna buy with them...
4-Ok so what matchups favor Russia.. (a)Tunguska's are fantastic units,, they very quickly turn abrams in MG bunkers.. and they smoke all other US units.. and are the next best thing to tactical nukes vs infantry,, the thicker the urban setting the better because u can fire completely thru 1 or sometimes 2 sets of structures to target infantry in buildings behind that,, plus they swat drones and choppers out of the are and have SAM missiles for jets so u should always have not less that 1 platoon most of the time 2..... they are only 2 vehicle platoons...there is also some command and arty vehicles u should always have but will cover that in tactics section (b) drones yes stingers can take them down but often not on the first shot and often players will just attach between 2 and 4 stinger teams,,, but doing that leaves them with no reloads so a miss or 2 will leave them open to a possible air attack.. russia does have some jets that are cheap enough to gamble on if u cut it from 2 units to 1--any map with long sight lines whether attack defense or meet taking a few ATGMs is worth the cost.they will KO bradleys.. they will hurt abrams even if not ko'd so the is value in the fairly cheap cost... the rest of the possible matchups in Russia favor will be highly dependent on tactics and mission...
5-Arty... there is a vast difference in what the Red Army has available in CMCW and CMBS... the CW massive arty strike is simply not affordable ... the most bang for the buck on a reasonable call in time is 120mm mortars...but compared to what else is available they are really pretty good... 152 precision arty does not ko abrams anyway so 120 mm does just as good there and pretty much the same versus all other targets and they come in a 6 gun battery that is downright impressive.. paired with an arty observe vehicle with a drone and a player would think they had a scary capability if they had not been spoiled bey the american combo...
6-force selection ok so it being clear u dont have good chances in a balanced fight what can be done..... seek an imbalanced one....for an example lets say u expect to face the mixed company team of 1 abram platoon and 2 bradley platoons.. than map/mission dependent u should go way tank heavy so... as much of a T72 company as possible even if it only leaves not much more than 1 platoon on infantry giving the chance of taking his best down which hopefully will take the other part of his force down trying even the score or save the other side of his formation or go very light on tanks and very heavy on troops atgms and so on with the same ideal..
7-tactics....those of u still reading this is where most of your ideals focused and they were good solid ideals but they just as well could have been offered to someone asking how to play the Brits in CMBN... again they were good solid tactics and they MUST be used but i do believe this ideal must be added... there wont be some masterplan or brillant trap u can catch them in hardly ever so what u must do above all is be fundamentally sound.. move wilth cover no unit fights alone all that ... i also believe u have to do 2 things that are almost opposites of each other... u have to be patient...and very solid but at the same time u have to watch for any opportunity or mistake and u have to pounce on it almost recklessly.... but NOt reckless dont lounge out without at least the chance of doing more damage then u will receive ... what i mean by that is maybe u see a vehicle that is or can be isolated attacked and then dart back into cover...... GO FOR IT,,,, go hard....and then watch for what i will call 50-50 shots.... something that makes u think if these units make contact in the way it looks like they are about to ... i think about half the time mine would win in this spot and about half the time they would lose.....THAN GO FOR IT.... 50-50 is better odds than US equipment will usually give u ...example put a abrams and T72 head on in a flat .50km box... what does abrams win that 90 percent higher? so whatever has happened that has even those odds up for next turn or 2 roll them dice..... Take note u have done something right he has done something wrong the terrain just laid out that way or some combo of the 3 happened and u still lose HALF the time.... just deal with it

The last thing i can think of is to make sure your imbalanced force is all within the same C2 chain.. that chain should have at the highest level an MTLB arty vehicle inside your best spotter.. drone pilot.. highest ranking officer for the formation even if he is in a squad that has to be spilt down from that any company commaders should have a command vehicle even the cheapest one then if u could not get around having a second formation the main formation XO should be placed with the highest ranking officer from the other formation... this will allow the drone info to fed directly to the CO of the biggest formation and with all company officers in command vehicles will all the spotting info to flow at fastest possible rate from drone down everybody.... and anything the drone misses will flow up the fastest and having XO placed with the out of C2 chain formation it will allow crosstalk between the formations... which may save a second or 2 spotting time and that might make the difference.......

the part i forgot is ..... there will be times your vehicles just blowup like your fighting ghosts.... not even a vague spot on anything and then BANG it is dead... battlefield CSI will have to be done every single time no matter how aggravating it is... even if it comes to quick pausing it right before the vehicle explodes to catch spot of what killed u... seeing a jav diving in should allow some backtracking and when u do flood the place with area fire for up to 30 seconds next turn then run... or if it was a tank shell... whatever else is near pop smoke run..... if excalibur shells raining down kick yourself for sitting there to long ....

It will take some lucky breaks to beat a well selected and handled US force.. but at end of the day luck will even out.... so do every little thing u can think of to place yourself where good luck can hit u.....and of corse u will make mistakes but your opponent will to... be alert for them and make the most of them........

Good Luck and Thank You if u managed reading all that I would be very interested in hearing any thoughts!!!

 

[Artkin]

I think bmp3 is worth it to blow up houses and suspected enemy positions using direct fire. It was designed for this role

 

[Shady Side]

I think bmp3 is worth it to blow up houses and suspected enemy positions using direct fire. It was designed for this role

well the 30mm autocannon does pretty good on buildings and just as good or better vs everything else.. even vs abrams i would rather be pumping 30mm shells into it and running like hell than hit it with the 100mm shot... neither one will KO it but it seems like the autocannon damages more subsystems more quickly and sometimes gets away for from that or at least softens the tank up for the next guy... plus dont forget i did mention having at least one platoon of Tunguska's which can level a city block if needed

thing with the bmp3 Tac AI treats the 100mm cannon has the main weapon or only weaponand while i agree the 100 is ok on sheltered infantry and airbusting rounds are really nice vs infantry almost anywhere outside it will get u killed vs about anything else... that is what really tips the scale for me.... that and bmp3 tend to go nuclear when knocked out and take any friendly units in the neighborhood with them

 

[Artkin]

You cant view the BMP-3, or really any vehicle as one that is supposed to directly fight other equivalent vehicles.
Tanks are not supposed to fight tanks, and ifv are not supposed to fight ifv.
Bmp-3 main gun is 100mm and loaded with all HE for a reason. They are not meant to fight abrams, or even bradleys. The 30mm is kind of like a backup, having apfsds in the ammo storage just in case.

I would play safe with them and make it a goal to expend all their ammounition before they explode with the force of 1000 suns.

 

[dkchapuis]

. (a)Tunguska's are fantastic units,, they very quickly turn abrams in MG bunkers.. and they smoke all other US units.. and are the next best thing to tactical nukes vs infantry,, the thicker the urban setting the better because u can fire completely thru 1 or sometimes 2 sets of structures to target infantry in buildings behind that,,

Im curious if the Tunguskas are actually that powerful in real life. They are insanely powerful in CM

 

[ALBY]

I highly doubt it.

The stock answer is that the BMPT is coming and that they did use an AA vehicle on buildings in Georgia.

 

[Shady Side]

You cant view the BMP-3, or really any vehicle as one that is supposed to directly fight other equivalent vehicles.
Tanks are not supposed to fight tanks, and ifv are not supposed to fight ifv.
Bmp-3 main gun is 100mm and loaded with all HE for a reason. They are not meant to fight abrams, or even bradleys. The 30mm is kind of like a backup, having apfsds in the ammo storage just in case.

I would play safe with them and make it a goal to expend all their ammounition before they explode with the force of 1000 suns.

The problem with expending all that ammo before they go boom is you are either being to safe with the vehicle and shooting empty map or you are shooting it where it enemy is which generally means they are going to shoot back and when your shooting and underwhelming every 15 or 20 seconds you are likely to catch something high explosive with your teeth...

I think you have to judge equipment not by what it is designed for but judge it by what its role is going to be in game. The BMP is a fighting vehicle so it is supposed to be up front fighting and when it is there there is very few things in game it has a good match up with including BMP2.

Obviously if you decide to go tank hunting with it then you have some other problems. but whether or not you were trying to find tanks with it or not you are going to run into them and when u do the Tac AI is going to shoot or lob a 100mm shell at that tank and most of the time your going to blow up soon after whether or not your shot connects. At least with the autocannon u stand a chance at ruining the main gun or optics or just freaking the tank crew out long enough to run away. Maybe not a really good chance but more often than with the bmp3.

This is a little off the point I was trying to make anyway. When you are selecting your force you need to get the most out of the budget you have and I believe in most cases you get more capibility for a very simiilar cost from the bmp2 or 2m

 

[Artkin]

a tunguska would shred any tank in existance. Maybe not the main gun unless an impact shot shrapnel down the barrel somehow and damaged the inner bore

 

[ALBY]

Yes, but do Tunguska crews train for MOUT or armored fighting ? No. They are trained in AA and the vehicle is designed to engage aerial targets. Would you really take it out on a battlefield with tanks and thermal viewers and such? No, I highly doubt it. It’s a quirk of CMBS because in game, the Tunguska is beastly. Let’s not forget it also swats down US drones and denies the US some targeting and precision capability too.

 

[Artkin]

Dont forget the Tunguska is barely SHORAD, and TOR handles the further away targets. Tunguskas place is on the battlefield

 

[ALBY]

Agree. But not lining up hull down against tanks or shooting a platoons worth of 30mm in a few bursts in tight urban or forested terrain. They are more likely set up in defilade, with a view of the open sky!

I use them too, so I’m not begrudging here. But IMO they should be less dominating.

 

[Shady Side]

Well it is an organic part of mechanized rifle battalions. So yes it is absolutely supposed to be on the battlefield along side of, well actually a little behind tanks, bmp's, and btrs. I am not sure how much they train for ground targets.. Hell come to think of it I am not sure IF they train at all. But there is a few videos of them live firing at ground targets on you tube for what that is worth. I suspect that what little training they do they are probably taught that of course fire ground fire in self defense and if a really tough spot is encountered they are probably taught it is a "last" option to try to crack it. Probably because of the speed in which it will burn its ammo, how embarassing would it be to use your ammo up shooting up a strong point in enemys defense only to have a chopper fly over 15 minutes later and waste a platoon of tanks that could have broken the same strong point for you..

I think of using them in game much like some of self propelled guns the allies have in the ww2 titles. In other words not necessarily lead an attack with them but once a spot presents itself that one can be useful bring it up blast what needs blasting and back it off... I use them defensively the same way they will never be in my first line of defense but I will have them.

Also it is a good point you make about how deadly they are vs drones and that is an important capability they can deprive the US from using and I could not agree more. Therefore I would hate to burn all my ammo up for them in the first half the game just to find out my opponent had held a drone in reserve hoping I would do some such thing.

As to if they are overpowered or not I honestly have no ideal if some whacky Russian decided to make a dedicated ground asset out of 1 or 2 of them.. I think they would make an impression on the enemy all the way up to MBT's.. but even versus them.... wrecking optics and main guns and spooking the mess out of the tank crew seems reasonable to me.. assuming they got the all important first spot and first accurate fire.

 

[Artkin]

The battalion manpads are cheap and have plenty of shots so I'll use those first. The tunguskas are pretty much reserved to scenarios. I wouldn't dare use them in battle like that, because I believe they would be picked off right away. Their ground spotting is around bmp-2 level (Maybe a smidge better). Not great. Their use would require area targeting something and annihilating it before reversing back to safety. It can chop up a mbt: I had one even penetrate and kill my T-90a from the front. I will just keep them behind my lines until the very end personally. People like to pick it for urban combat, understandably so.

 

[Shady Side]

The battalion manpads are cheap and have plenty of shots so I'll use those first. The tunguskas are pretty much reserved to scenarios. I wouldn't dare use them in battle like that, because I believe they would be picked off right away. Their ground spotting is around bmp-2 level (Maybe a smidge better). Not great. Their use would require area targeting something and annihilating it before reversing back to safety. It can chop up a mbt: I had one even penetrate and kill my T-90a from the front. I will just keep them behind my lines until the very end personally. People like to pick it for urban combat, understandably so.

well from what i can tell spotting around the level of bmp2 is around where most of the russian army is in this game... and doing the berm drill is the wisest way to use anything from a T90 down to a Tiger...
the thing really is fantastic fire support... i rarely take it out to go vehicle hunting even though it will kill or as good as kill anything the US has....playing that offensive with it i dont think would work out..
for example though if u have eyes on a bradley hiding behind a house..... well it will delete the house ko the bradley and still be able to back itself into cover in a single turn...

it is far better versus infantry in structures than any 2 tanks or IFVs combined because u just have to have line of sight to a building or 2 in front of your target and it will blast thru to where u want...

it is great in defensive battles give it a target arc of ground to cover it spots good enough most of the time... it does all that in addition to making US drones a waste of budget as most of the time within 2 turns none of the little ravens are still flying plus it has some pretty good SAM missles to but i have only seen them have to launch them a couple times in years of playing the game