Soviet OOB Day 1

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Ithikial

Ithikial

FGM 2ND IN COMMAND
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@Strachwitz and team mates.

Looking good with the OOB so far, will let you decide how to trim it down to fit the points limit for day 1.

Just a couple of things:
- Can you please identify which of the artillery assets are off map and which are on map. (Campaign map). Keep in mind the points differences depending on which you chose. Artillery on the campaign map can be used in an off map capacity if the situation suits (and possible inside the editor), however you have the added responsibility of keeping the unit safe on the campaign map.
- The points in the lower section are still missing.
- No probs with your idea of the rough average points value as you've described.
- Keep in mind you don't need to commit to day 2 or 3 forces yet. These will only need to be decided before the dawn campaign turn at the start of day 2.

Cheers
 
Ok, then we can proceed with the xls file.
The units entered in the xls file for now are just placeholders to see if everything is correct and get a feel how to structure the OOB. We will soon choose our actual units and fill in the xls file accordingly up to the 35k limit.
Artillery: If I remember correctly all assets up to 81mm have to be on-map right?
 
Strachwitz said:
Ok, then we can proceed with the xls file.
The units entered in the xls file for now are just placeholders to see if everything is correct and get a feel how to structure the OOB. We will soon choose our actual units and fill in the xls file accordingly up to the 35k limit.
Artillery: If I remember correctly all assets up to 81mm have to be on-map right?
Click to expand...

Correct. No problems purchasing a platoon of 'offmap' mortars but they'll need a campaign map token. Their range is just to limited to warrant being off the campaign map for all three days. All organic artillery and mortar pieces a part of larger formations taken must be on map. (Usually a part of a separate support company).
 
OK guys the Alpha Version of the OOB is ready for your viewing pleasure. The btt-File is in our Dropbox folder. As you can see there is a lot of stuff in Russian Tank Corps. Basically:
3 Tank Brigades (á 3 Batallions with 2 Companies of T-34/85 each for 66 tanks total and one submachinegun battalion in a Brigade and 1 Motorized Rifle Batallion with supporting assets per Brigade)
1 motorized Rifle brigade (3 Batallions of Infantry plus lots of supporting units like AT and artillery assets)
1 Guards Heavy Tank Regiment
1 Guards Heavy Self-propelled Gun Regiment
1 Self-Propelled Gun Regiment
1 AT Regiment (ZIS-3 76mm AT-guns)
1 AA Regiment (85mm FlaK/PaK)
1 Sapper Battalion
And of course different additional Artillery assets I forgot (heavy mortars, 76mm Guns, Katyushas (I am on the road ATM)

Be advised this is not the final overall OOB. There are still some things to do but you can have a look at what is at our disposal. For every need there should be the right asset. Also be advised that in the bottom half of the OOB the supporting units like AT and artillery are more or less placeholders with explanations as not all assets fit into the OOB at once. This problem will be sorted out.

I think I can manage to make a "Master-OOB" excel sheet with all stuff sorted and the according unit costs. That way we have all assets with purchase values and can shuffle around the units to get our Day 1 OOB.

We are getting closer gentlemen!

@Ithikial : Please don't use this OOB file as it is work in progress!
 
Assuming I'm doing this correctly (basic question here!): I'm opening the alpha .btt file in the scenario editor, and looking at the "purchased troops" window, right?

Because of the limitations of BF's CMx2 editor (you can only see so many units, with no scrolling window ... doh!), it would be easier (for me) to look at in the spreadsheet .xlsx format, to see all the units and all the details "at once". But we don't have it in that format yet, right?

A couple of thoughts that did occur from a quick look in the editor, around the "soft" factors:

Only the heavy tank and SU (and arty) units are Guards: are we allowed to / is there any benefit from having the base tank units as Guards instead / as well?

Linked to this, I notice quite a few units have minus (1 or 2) leadership values. In my RT Soviet experience so far, the Soviets already suffer poorer spotting/accuracy/morale factors compared with the Axis ... we need the "best" units we can legitimately get. Are we constrained by the "typical" unit choice just to "take what we get" in this respect, or can we enhance them?

As for the basic OOB contents: well, we have a good basis there! But partly because I don't think I can see the "full picture" (i.e. in spreadsheet format, as above), I'm not able to say whether or not I would suggest tinkering at the edges ...?? Also not easy (possible?) to see what is costing what in the editor view??
 
All in all setting up something that big in the editor is not easy.
Spreadsheet will be available soon, this will help.
Yes, just the two heavy regiments and some artillery are Guards. I oriented me on the real OOB for the 3 Tank Corps and they were pure Russian Army. The Guards are actually "semi-fictional" and are there to get some more variety to the OOB. There were no limitations by rules per se, but I decided to go that way with regular Russian army to be in line what I think is the "soul" or spirit of the campaign. If you think this is wrong feel free to discuss this. But I guess the Germans also go a similar way by mimicing the actual units.
As for the bad leadership of some units this is constrained by the typical settings. For me this is totally OK and I actually like it. Take what you get and do the best with your troops. A bit like commanding a real unit. Also I think this is in the best interest of the campaign. I don't want to streamline every bit of the force purchase like I do in regular QBs. There I strip down everything I have no need for. But for me this campaign is more and should be played with the limitations a real unit had to deal with. Even if it means to have green troops and some stuff like AT-rifles which are useless to some degree. But this all is of course discussable.

For discussion on the OOB I think it's best I make one Day 1 OOB and then we tinker the edges. Are you ok with that? What could be usefull is what you think we need to get our job done. For example do you think we need AT guns in day one I get maybe flank protection? And so on...
Did you have any chances to review the map?
 
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Yep, all of the aspects of "playing with the limitations of real units", and the "spirit of the game" is fine with me ... as long as the Axis forces are the same! I wouldn't want to alter the force composition totally, just give ourselves an (honest) "edge" if we can. What won't be much fun is if by day 3 we find ourselves fighting off hordes of veteran Panther units, with a few +2 leadership King Tigers thrown in ... :)

I'm very happy to see a draft day 1 OOB in .xlsx format, and then tinker with that ...

I am looking at the map, but my machine doesn't like big chunks of it at once ... and it is disorientating to look at small sections of it at a time, and try to make an overall mental picture of it!! (The editor's wacky - IMO - way of cutting the map doesn't help either: why in this century we cannot just click and drag with a mouse on the map to select the area we want, then double click it to see a 3D view ...).

I will carry on looking at the map.

It is a point of detail, but on the AT guns, I'd leave them for day 1 I think. May be just the way I (mis)handle them, but I find them of almost no use on the offence ... awkward to move and site, get easily spotted and more likely to be killed than kill. I favour SP units, especially on the offence ... the guns may have a role on day 2 / 3, when we will (?) be on the defensive?

Looking at the victory conditions of us holding the Axis map square for 2 consecutive turns or at the final turn (yes?), I suspect that the Axis counterattack on day 3 with their points advantage will mean that we are unlikely to be able to hold that VL at the end ... so does that mean our aim is to try and take it quickly (morning day 2??) and hold it for two turns, as the best chance of overall victory??

So, we need speed from the off???? Yes? Are we equipped for that, as well as we can be?
 
I uploaded two xls files to our folder. One is a "master OOB" with all units available to us. The second is a first draft or Day 1. As you can see we are still about 6000 points over. Have a look at it an tinker around :).

As for the map and strategy. I can open the map with 2,5 x 5 km and for the first time of reviewed the map. Just a short period but I make progress.
We just have 3 bridges to cross and for now I think we don't have to go into details how we proceed after we secured the crossings. First things first. We need these bridges. Fast! That's for sure. I think we need smoke.
Lots of it. I have to look closer to all our artillery assets if they have enough smoke rounds. If not we have to buy some big artillery providing us with long lasting dense smoke screens. I check this out tomorrow.

You are right about the AT guns. This was just an example but anyway we don't new them in day one. For the attack their are close to useless but later in the campaign we maybe need cheap flank protection. We will see :)

As a general basic strategy I think hitting fast and deep on Day 1 is essential!
 
@Ithikial : how to we handle mines and hedgehogs? Do we need to clear them on the actual battlefield? Or somehow on the campaign map? If I would be the German commander I would heavily mine the bridges and ways in an out. Also hedgehogs can't be destroyed. They are indestructible and of you set them the right way the Germans could block all river crossings with no chance to get over them. All you need are 20 hedgehogs to seal the west side of the river...
 
Been looking at some more of the map ... sadly only in 1Km x 1km sized chunks, as that's all my machine seems to like. (Though it will happily play actual battles much bigger at reasonable speed / frame rate! And whilst bigger chunks cause CMRT - only - to crash, it leaves the machine outside of CMx2 operating normally, so I'm not sure what the exact problem is ... just doesn't seem to like the Editor ...!!)

My first reaction to the river crossing options is to try and avoid a major attack (diversion instead?) through E8/E9: the built up area and woodlands on the far side of the river through which our attack would have to pass (provided that I have isolated the right bit of the map!) seem to offer lots of good defence / ambush opportunities for the Axis??

On the other hand, the extreme right flank squares, A8/A9, seem more open and accessible for our troops? Also, being a map edge square, we have a secure flank on that map edge (and so e.g. Axis cannot draw more forces into a battle by expanding the map in that direction??) Although on a less direct line to our objective, I tend to favour this as a main attack route? Any thoughts?
 
Also looking at the day 1 OOB: version I am looking at shows current cost of 37,821 points v "budget" of 35,000 ... i.e. need to trim 2,821?

Equivalent to a whole tank company+ ?? I'd much prefer to keep the core tank units if we can, and lose the "ancillaries", e.g. the 57mm AT guns?? The 76mm variety is OK (the Axis used a lot of captured examples ...), but the smaller calibre examples are of limited utility I find.
 
Strachwitz said:
@Ithikial : how to we handle mines and hedgehogs? Do we need to clear them on the actual battlefield? Or somehow on the campaign map? If I would be the German commander I would heavily mine the bridges and ways in an out. Also hedgehogs can't be destroyed. They are indestructible and of you set them the right way the Germans could block all river crossings with no chance to get over them. All you need are 20 hedgehogs to seal the west side of the river...
Click to expand...

The likelihood of this occurring you would suspect to be high. "Bend the Rules." How would a Soviet Tank Corps get around the problem? What would they need to bring and what conditions at the site (in this case the bridge) need to be to make it happen?

You don't need to remove every mine and hedgehog obstacle in game. I'm not that evil. :)
 
The map edge can give us a bit of an advantage. Or at least no disadvantge. I will study the map further and think of it all. As it looks for me every available crossing are quite difficult and offer lots of opportunities to halt our advance. Right now I think it doesn`t matter really which crossing as they are all good defensive positions. As soon as I have the first tokens ready I can move them around a bit and experiment with different attack and map dimension settings to get a feel for this.
For now I tend to secure the crossings at D9 and E9. There are three crossings. And we need as many crossings as we can get early in the game. It takes an estimated 1,5 minutes for 2 tanks to cross a bridge. Traffic jams are very likely and we need alternate routes of advance. Just attacking the one bridge at A9 could get us stuck early. What we need is a fast rush over the bridges. What I have in mind is a combination of heavy smoke screens to cover our movement, heavy artillery on suspected ambush sites and nearby woods to suppress the enemy and artillery on possible minefields and barbed wire locations to detonate as much of these as possible. Hedgehogs could give us real pain as they are indestructible We will see.

I will now test our artillery assets for smoke capabilities and what we need to clear possible minefields...
 
Ah and I will strip down the AT-assets. But maybe I will keep some 57mm AT guns. They are small, not easy to spot on defense and cheap. Don`t underestimate them. They are very capable to knock out tanks. They penetrate more than 100mm steel at 500m and about 89mm at 1000m. And thats just the normal AT-ammo. The few rounds special ammo penetrate 145mm at 500m and 107mm at 1000m. They are really a thread to tanks and not to compare with German or US at-gun which are more like BB-guns...
 
Some more semi random thoughts on strategy, etc ...

From our start point we are the full 12 rows away from our VL (their truck icon), and still 8 rows away after we cross the river; at their start line they are 3 rows only away from their VL (our truck icon). They have a lot of front line behind the red squares, where we cannot attack, to place a mobile reserve / strike force to let us "pass by" and then rush through the same passage points we have just used but in the opposite direction. Is such a "sneak" early attack possible / likely? Do we (can we?) guard against it? Their advantage in points on day 2 is just as big as ours is on day one (in fact bigger in some ways, because our base point size is smaller on day 2 than theirs was on day 1).

On the same tack, assuming that we are still playing and being pushed back on day 3, will we need to have the capability (OOB-wise) to defend the same 3 gaps against their reinforcements that we were able to attack through??
 
Just a short answer as I am on the road...we have to be prepared to defend also. That's why we have some cheap AT-assets in the OOB. I will have a look at all the points you made. Haven't looked at reinforcements on Day 2 or 3 much but will familiarize with that soon :)
 
Addendum: of course we will not only push straight forward to our objective. We have to secure vital points of the map also and will build up flanking security or secure areas threatening our front. After the initial breakthrough at the river we are not only going deep but wide!
 
@PhilM : just to make sure that there is no misunderstanding. I read quickly through my postings and they all sound a bit rude. I just wanted to assure that it is not my intention. For me writing in English is always a bit difficult to me and most of the time I don't have much time to "polish" my words. I hope you or someone else don't feel offended. I just write down my thoughts quickly to get answers out fast and in time! All your input is very valuable and I look forward enjoying this campaign.
 
Strachwitz said:
@PhilM : just to make sure that there is no misunderstanding. I read quickly through my postings and they all sound a bit rude. I just wanted to assure that it is not my intention. For me writing in English is always a bit difficult to me and most of the time I don't have much time to "polish" my words. I hope you or someone else don't feel offended. I just write down my thoughts quickly to get answers out fast and in time! All your input is very valuable and I look forward enjoying this campaign.
Click to expand...

No problem, I understand - and thanks for the clarification / explanation anyway ... :)
 
@Ithikial : I am now making the Counter/Tokens and need what exactly do you need. Every Unit/Tokens as a separate PSD-File?
 
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