Round 4 AAR's
- Thread starter SlySniper
- Start date
Ok, I saw alot of things I really did not like from the attackers side in this battle.
First, the option to use Arty on turn one should have been used.
You are attacking multible terrain feature in open ground and within line of sight of the known enemy location.
There is two hills from where the enemy can view you.
That arty should have been falling on Turn one on one of those hills.
Some of your armor should likely have been area firing on the other at some likely locations.
Out of the Eleven battles, many didnt do it.
Next, the armor itself.
In many battles I had players pushing the armour with the long barrel guns forward in front of the short barrel tanks
It should have been the reverse of that.
The short barrel armour should have been pushed forward to just outside of bazooka range and they should have been focused on infantry support fire against dug in units.
While the long 50's and 75's should be a little farther back providing accurate cover fire.
The Terrain. and the approach.
Dessert fighting is a little different in that cover is found in the slopes and grade of the land, not the trees and objects normally seen in other terrain.
There was only three options, go left, go right or up the middle. Well a forth was created. Some players never really pushed forward at all.
Well sitting back was a terrible decision., the briefing warned that you needed to keep your force focused on only one sector and somehow screen your attack to only deal with part of the defensive forces. Sitting back kept you in view of pretty much the whole enemy line.
Going left flank was a terrible choice, no one did that.
Going right flank was the choice most of you made and in general found out that was a terrible choice.
It was time comsuming to shift to the right and it was higher ground and in general exposed you to alot of fire from the left flank, let alone more fire from the right flank .
Thus once again exposing you to a large portion of the enemy forces which you did not have the numbers to deal with.
The approach I feel is the best was to as quickly as possible just push straight up the middle until you were close enough to start placing fire on the forward trenches there. Of course , the first challenge was to clear enemy guns that needed to be addressed before any action plan would be possible.
but pushing up the middle actually provided you cover from the enemy in that far less locations could see you there in the low area as you closed.
The Americans did not have the units to counter attack with once you cleared the hills and moved up in the early battle. Thus giving you time to clear the front trenches. Once the enemy armor enters the battle, it was designed to stop you from any more advances.
In the testing phase of making the battle. My general german success was maybe clearing the two forward sections of trenches in the middle. then contesting the hill to the left and maybe even the far left trenches. never managed to get to the hill on the right flank and keep troops on it. since the American armor counter attack always came from that direction.
So that was what I felt a succesful attack would look like.
We had only two truly successful attacks in the game, they had their own method of doing it.
First, the option to use Arty on turn one should have been used.
You are attacking multible terrain feature in open ground and within line of sight of the known enemy location.
There is two hills from where the enemy can view you.
That arty should have been falling on Turn one on one of those hills.
Some of your armor should likely have been area firing on the other at some likely locations.
Out of the Eleven battles, many didnt do it.
Next, the armor itself.
In many battles I had players pushing the armour with the long barrel guns forward in front of the short barrel tanks
It should have been the reverse of that.
The short barrel armour should have been pushed forward to just outside of bazooka range and they should have been focused on infantry support fire against dug in units.
While the long 50's and 75's should be a little farther back providing accurate cover fire.
The Terrain. and the approach.
Dessert fighting is a little different in that cover is found in the slopes and grade of the land, not the trees and objects normally seen in other terrain.
There was only three options, go left, go right or up the middle. Well a forth was created. Some players never really pushed forward at all.
Well sitting back was a terrible decision., the briefing warned that you needed to keep your force focused on only one sector and somehow screen your attack to only deal with part of the defensive forces. Sitting back kept you in view of pretty much the whole enemy line.
Going left flank was a terrible choice, no one did that.
Going right flank was the choice most of you made and in general found out that was a terrible choice.
It was time comsuming to shift to the right and it was higher ground and in general exposed you to alot of fire from the left flank, let alone more fire from the right flank .
Thus once again exposing you to a large portion of the enemy forces which you did not have the numbers to deal with.
The approach I feel is the best was to as quickly as possible just push straight up the middle until you were close enough to start placing fire on the forward trenches there. Of course , the first challenge was to clear enemy guns that needed to be addressed before any action plan would be possible.
but pushing up the middle actually provided you cover from the enemy in that far less locations could see you there in the low area as you closed.
The Americans did not have the units to counter attack with once you cleared the hills and moved up in the early battle. Thus giving you time to clear the front trenches. Once the enemy armor enters the battle, it was designed to stop you from any more advances.
In the testing phase of making the battle. My general german success was maybe clearing the two forward sections of trenches in the middle. then contesting the hill to the left and maybe even the far left trenches. never managed to get to the hill on the right flank and keep troops on it. since the American armor counter attack always came from that direction.
So that was what I felt a succesful attack would look like.
We had only two truly successful attacks in the game, they had their own method of doing it.
Defensive play was much better, I saw some interesting things and some good placement of units. Some of you really managed to get alot of success out of the AT guns and some were wickedly placed.
I did see one or two players make the mistake as to having units too close together and the enemy plane did a Number on them when dropping its bomb on target.
I dont recall who, but someone lost 4-6 halftracks with one bomb attack.
I did see one or two players make the mistake as to having units too close together and the enemy plane did a Number on them when dropping its bomb on target.
I dont recall who, but someone lost 4-6 halftracks with one bomb attack.
That would be me.
7 halftracks bunched together behind the right hill to hide from the tanks till the infantry came. Did not turn out that way.
The Germans had air power?
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I'm at work so no screens. I'll try to put something more together this weekend but for now I'll use Sly's post to guide some comments...
Then I had the CAS focusing on the right trenches since that was where I was going to attack.
I am surprised to hear you say the right was a bad choice. Terrain speaking it was the only one. Once my force was on the plain to the right I had zero worries about any enemy in the centre or left. Only the hills were a concern but I kept up the area fire as needed to keep that quiet. Then I was able to focus on just the one sector and keep my tanks eyes front against them. The plan was to break the forces on the right and then roll up the rest of the line. The plan was working except for time and those GD reinforcements - my guys were getting tired and what I really need was to let them rest a bit before continuing the assault. The US armour ground things to nearly a halt. My tank gunners sucked. They should have been able to pop those Stuarts but they kept missing. Grrrr. Thankfully their 37mm guns were not doing a lot to my armour - other than wrecking sub systems and breaking weapons. Honestly I though I was toast in the last few minutes. I managed to scrape together some guys in OK shape to start rolling up the trenches as best I could. Thankfully I could bring a lot of MG42s from HTs to bear and my guys made good progress mopping up. The clock just did not cooperate. Honestly I was surprised to hear I had done the best as the Germans because I didn't feel things went that well.
I had to pay attention to traffic management and widen the lanes - fortunately I had a few tanks which lost their main gun that could help Moving to the right chewed up the clock and I did have to be a traffic cop every minute. Thankfully I'm pretty good a traffic management after playing so much. Once my forces where on the right in the back they were basically un-target-able by the enemy so I could then choose who and when I exposed to the defenders.
Oh man yes for sure. Especially in a @SlySniper scenario - you have it use it.
Exactly. I chose to go right, more below, I had the artillery coming down as a linear mission across the centre and a little left. I placed it slightly behind the main hill figuring that way the explosions would be on the US side of the hill - you know where his guys would be
Then I had the CAS focusing on the right trenches since that was where I was going to attack.Hell yes. Some of them even guessed right about where the enemy was. As soon as the lead started coming back my way I adjusted area fire as I could to concentrate where the enemy was.
Oh that's not good. If you let the AT gun crews have free reign they can take out multiple tanks in a minute.
Agreed and that's why I went right. My assessment of the terrain was that going straight would mean taking fire from the left and the right as well as the centre. Once on the right really the only enemy you have to actively worry about is on the right and perhaps the hills but that's what area fire is for. So I set about having every tank with smoke putting down smoke on my right and some the centre so I could move left in relative peace. I only moved half the force at first - the rest was either laying smoke or shooting the shit out of anything that might be the enemy. Moving was challenging for sure and the low walls were an issue - even breaching them didn't always allow for smooth traversal from HTs.
I am surprised to hear you say the right was a bad choice. Terrain speaking it was the only one. Once my force was on the plain to the right I had zero worries about any enemy in the centre or left. Only the hills were a concern but I kept up the area fire as needed to keep that quiet. Then I was able to focus on just the one sector and keep my tanks eyes front against them. The plan was to break the forces on the right and then roll up the rest of the line. The plan was working except for time and those GD reinforcements - my guys were getting tired and what I really need was to let them rest a bit before continuing the assault. The US armour ground things to nearly a halt. My tank gunners sucked. They should have been able to pop those Stuarts but they kept missing. Grrrr. Thankfully their 37mm guns were not doing a lot to my armour - other than wrecking sub systems and breaking weapons. Honestly I though I was toast in the last few minutes. I managed to scrape together some guys in OK shape to start rolling up the trenches as best I could. Thankfully I could bring a lot of MG42s from HTs to bear and my guys made good progress mopping up. The clock just did not cooperate. Honestly I was surprised to hear I had done the best as the Germans because I didn't feel things went that well.
I had to pay attention to traffic management and widen the lanes - fortunately I had a few tanks which lost their main gun that could help
Moving to the right chewed up the clock and I did have to be a traffic cop every minute. Thankfully I'm pretty good a traffic management after playing so much. Once my forces where on the right in the back they were basically un-target-able by the enemy so I could then choose who and when I exposed to the defenders.This I don't understand or agree with. Yes, shifting costs time but on the right there are dead zones where no US forces can hit and if you shape things right you can choose where and when your forces are face off against the enemy. I think I only lost one HT that was fully loaded - I got a little aggressive and paid for it.
I am curious what the other successful attack looked like.
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Yep. That big crater was not just from hitting the 105SP guns
I too tried to go right for all the same reasons as @A Canadian Cat but my execution was not good as I used the indirect fires to lay a smoke screen when it should have been suppressing/paving the way. One the tanks is were up there the AT guns had a field day and when the infantry arrived I tried to switch left. He had plenty covering the slope which was then not covered by smoke.
Was bit of a bloodbath as I knew if I didn’t get into the trenches quickly it would be tough.
Was bit of a bloodbath as I knew if I didn’t get into the trenches quickly it would be tough.
Yep. That big crater was not just from hitting the 105SP guns
My game ended early with a ceasefire.
I don't think the airpower ever arrived.
I’m intrigued to know how well each of the US players’ did with their ATG’s? Mine KO’d nine tanks between them before the last one died in the tenth minute. I thought at the time they had done well, but clearly not as I had one of the worst US results
Canadian Cat, if it worked, then of course your decision was correct. (for your battle anyway.)
Keep in mind, the defender had choices also.
There was one defender I can think of, that his defence likey would have punished you as well as it did the player he faced. It was well designed to crush any German right flank attack.
So there is always the variables that made it interesting.
Most Germans that swung right, did not go far enough to the right to prevent fire from the left flank from seeing them.
But I agree, yes going far enough to the right can limit the amount of the defencive forces that could engage you.
I am just pointing out that the low pocket area straight ahead would also limit the amount of enemy units that could spot you, was much easier and faster to get to,
Then once there you could then decide weather to go left flank or right flank as to which defence seemed easier to defeat. (so you had a option instead of being stuck with the decision which had to be made from the start of the battle with little info.)
Keep in mind, the defender had choices also.
There was one defender I can think of, that his defence likey would have punished you as well as it did the player he faced. It was well designed to crush any German right flank attack.
So there is always the variables that made it interesting.
Most Germans that swung right, did not go far enough to the right to prevent fire from the left flank from seeing them.
But I agree, yes going far enough to the right can limit the amount of the defencive forces that could engage you.
I am just pointing out that the low pocket area straight ahead would also limit the amount of enemy units that could spot you, was much easier and faster to get to,
Then once there you could then decide weather to go left flank or right flank as to which defence seemed easier to defeat. (so you had a option instead of being stuck with the decision which had to be made from the start of the battle with little info.)
5 of my guns killed 12 tanks. A 6th gun probably got one or two more, but I supposed all the soldiers were buddy-aided away, but I can’t find their bodies anywhere.
I (US side) had one gun on my far left map edge. I also rushed
I also had a gun on my US right that was at the bottom elbow of the right hill. It had visibility to all of the middle (pic below). I also had a HT ready to load up my far left gun. I don’t feel like the middle was a great option. Just my opinion.
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I'm at work so no screens. I'll try to put something more together this weekend but for now I'll use Sly's post to guide some comments...
Oh man yes for sure. Especially in a @SlySniper scenario - you have it use it.
Exactly. I chose to go right, more below, I had the artillery coming down as a linear mission across the centre and a little left. I placed it slightly behind the main hill figuring that way the explosions would be on the US side of the hill - you know where his guys would be
Hell yes. Some of them even guessed right about where the enemy was. As soon as the lead started coming back my way I adjusted area fire as I could to concentrate where the enemy was.
Oh that's not good. If you let the AT gun crews have free reign they can take out multiple tanks in a minute.
Agreed and that's why I went right. My assessment of the terrain was that going straight would mean taking fire from the left and the right as well as the centre. Once on the right really the only enemy you have to actively worry about is on the right and perhaps the hills but that's what area fire is for. So I set about having every tank with smoke putting down smoke on my right and some the centre so I could move left in relative peace. I only moved half the force at first - the rest was either laying smoke or shooting the shit out of anything that might be the enemy. Moving was challenging for sure and the low walls were an issue - even breaching them didn't always allow for smooth traversal from HTs.
I am surprised to hear you say the right was a bad choice. Terrain speaking it was the only one. Once my force was on the plain to the right I had zero worries about any enemy in the centre or left. Only the hills were a concern but I kept up the area fire as needed to keep that quiet. Then I was able to focus on just the one sector and keep my tanks eyes front against them. The plan was to break the forces on the right and then roll up the rest of the line. The plan was working except for time and those GD reinforcements - my guys were getting tired and what I really need was to let them rest a bit before continuing the assault. The US armour ground things to nearly a halt. My tank gunners sucked. They should have been able to pop those Stuarts but they kept missing. Grrrr. Thankfully their 37mm guns were not doing a lot to my armour - other than wrecking sub systems and breaking weapons. Honestly I though I was toast in the last few minutes. I managed to scrape together some guys in OK shape to start rolling up the trenches as best I could. Thankfully I could bring a lot of MG42s from HTs to bear and my guys made good progress mopping up. The clock just did not cooperate. Honestly I was surprised to hear I had done the best as the Germans because I didn't feel things went that well.
I had to pay attention to traffic management and widen the lanes - fortunately I had a few tanks which lost their main gun that could help
This was basically exactly like my plan. Artillery on left trench, CAS on the right. I positioned my starting forces mostly on the right and went for an aggressive flank on the right. My plan was to move about a company worth of tanks supported with infantry over the right flank, while the rest of the forces guarded the flank/rear of my flank (against @MeatEtr this is important
) and keeping up the smoke.After the bulk of infantry arrived I decided to use half for the flank while the Pz Gren company would storm the right part of the front.
All barrels (area) firing and much use of smoke to mask my movement from turn one.
We were joking before the match about Himars and V2s, my CAS/V2 bomb did manage to take out a couple of vehicles and at that time I was cheering and hoping it were his suspected Sherman / Stuart tanks. After about ~10 min in the game I was started to suspect that the enemy tanks would come in as reinforcements.
Another nice detail was MeatEtr using his HTs and trucks to distract my tanks/ACs, which was semi successful as I used arcs to prevent distraction but in the end those arcs didn't help when his reinforcements started showing up.
On the German side I was using the kubelwagens as ersatz smoke screen creators, masking my flank and allowing my AT guns to setup without getting targeted too much.
After my AWOL situation Slysniper managed the 2nd half of the game as MeatEtr reinforcing tanks dealt with the German flank forces, I watched a few turns of it this week. I felt guilty creating that situation for him to manage but he did a good job
I was moderately happy with my AT gun performance, but they seemed to get knocked out rather easily despite being situated in trenches which I figured would give them more protection. I also didn't let them open fire on the opening turn, setting short covered arcs instead so I could figure out what I wanted to concentrate on once the enemy was revealed. They managed 11 tank kills between them.
Pretty tough battle, was happy to turn back my enemies right flank attack and threaten his flank, but dastardly accuracy by his short guns put paid to that attempt.
The SPs did very little, mostly being blinded by dust or smoke, then one fell victim to an aircraft bomb. I got better mileage out of the M3 GMCs, although one fell victim to an absolutely bullshit shot by a short 75 armoured car over the horizon while the M3 was going at full clip.
With another few minutes I'm pretty sure I could have blunted his left flank attack, but RNG with who hit what could have gone either way.
Good battle though, very exciting.
Pretty tough battle, was happy to turn back my enemies right flank attack and threaten his flank, but dastardly accuracy by his short guns put paid to that attempt.
The SPs did very little, mostly being blinded by dust or smoke, then one fell victim to an aircraft bomb. I got better mileage out of the M3 GMCs, although one fell victim to an absolutely bullshit shot by a short 75 armoured car over the horizon while the M3 was going at full clip.
With another few minutes I'm pretty sure I could have blunted his left flank attack, but RNG with who hit what could have gone either way.
Good battle though, very exciting.
Just to be clear for everyone- when you are speaking of German attack and say "Right Flank", you are referring to the American left flank, German right...correct?
I got mixed results from my AT guns. Partly my fault as I waited way too long to open up with them. I put 3 on the left mound which only got about 5 tanks before all getting killed. The other 3, I put way over on my right flank. Which worked great, they got more kills and was harder for the enemy to deal with. 2 of these survived the battle.
The reinforcements came in to save the trench on my left flank as it was now overrun. So they retook that but I was still trying to deal with his 3 PaK guns. So that slowed me down getting to the middle two trenches. Enemy was able to just barely hold on to two of the Obj.s to contest them. I should of been more aggressive trying to kick him out but just simply ran outta time.
Good game from @Lethaface for the first half of the battle and well done finishing this battle by @SlySniper Good times!
The reinforcements came in to save the trench on my left flank as it was now overrun. So they retook that but I was still trying to deal with his 3 PaK guns. So that slowed me down getting to the middle two trenches. Enemy was able to just barely hold on to two of the Obj.s to contest them. I should of been more aggressive trying to kick him out but just simply ran outta time.
Good game from @Lethaface for the first half of the battle and well done finishing this battle by @SlySniper Good times!
Those 3 on my left were indeed a pain to deal with. I decided on smoking them but that didn't help targeting either. My idea was to just keeping them obscured by smoke rounds until the end and or use the infantry guns against m. Guess they were ideally distanced to deal with the short barreled 75s.I got mixed results from my AT guns. Partly my fault as I waited way too long to open up with them. I put 3 on the left mound which only got about 5 tanks before all getting killed. The other 3, I put way over on my right flank. Which worked great, they got more kills and was harder for the enemy to deal with. 2 of these survived the battle.
The reinforcements came in to save the trench on my left flank as it was now overrun. So they retook that but I was still trying to deal with his 3 PaK guns. So that slowed me down getting to the middle two trenches. Enemy was able to just barely hold on to two of the Obj.s to contest them. I should of been more aggressive trying to kick him out but just simply ran outta time.
Good game from @Lethaface for the first half of the battle and well done finishing this battle by @SlySniper Good times!
Those AT guns on my right, which were closer to my forces, were dealt with quicker than I expected.
Dealing with your Priests on my right, nicely positioned behind the mound, was what imo really held back my flank overrunning your rear before the reinforcements arrived. Although even if I made that, your reinforcements would have arrived in my rear. Proper dramatic battle indeed
I didn't take much screens, but this is one of my right flank developing. The dust was an important factor in the battle.
