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Round 4 AAR's

Brief AT Gun overview, more to follow- I split my AT guns with 3 on my left and 3 on the right, same as MeatEtr. My right flank AT guns also did the most damage. I lost one AT gun early, it was not entrenched. The other two were entrenched on the ridge with great LOS. I place my M3 75mm 1/2 tracks in a reverse slope situation, aiming toward the middle line (I did this on both my right and left) in order to defend the center at range and protect from German direct fire. My right two AT guns alone wracked up a combined kill of this: 135 casualties, 12 half tracks, 6 Stummels, 1 (75mm) AT gun, 2 armored cars, 10 PZ IIIs. My M3s added a bit more with a combined 60 Casualties, 2 PZ III, 1 PZ IV, 7 half tracks and a 20mm Flak Wagon. This damage was just with 2 AT guns and 3 MC Gun Carriages. The AT guns on my left flank did not have as many targets. They combined with 8 PZ IIIs, 2 PZ IVs and 2 half tracks. I lost all my AT guns except for one on my left that I had farther back on the map to cover that weaker area I felt a flank attack would come from. By the time I got my tank reinforcements, it was really a mop-up operation at that point. I agree with assessment that if the Germans had shelled me early and used more smoke, they could have gotten closer and perhaps pierced my lines. Easy for me to say, but I said a prayer for those poor bastards nonetheless.
 
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I got mixed results from my AT guns. Partly my fault as I waited way too long to open up with them. I put 3 on the left mound which only got about 5 tanks before all getting killed. The other 3, I put way over on my right flank. Which worked great, they got more kills and was harder for the enemy to deal with. 2 of these survived the battle.

The reinforcements came in to save the trench on my left flank as it was now overrun. So they retook that but I was still trying to deal with his 3 PaK guns. So that slowed me down getting to the middle two trenches. Enemy was able to just barely hold on to two of the Obj.s to contest them. I should of been more aggressive trying to kick him out but just simply ran outta time.

Good game from @Lethaface for the first half of the battle and well done finishing this battle by @SlySniper Good times! (y)


If you had just one more minute, you would have had all the objectives and likely would have had another win.
The first turn I stepped in felt like the first turn you released all units on the Germans. I was getting my ass kicked from that point on and I quickly went into a mode of can I somehow save this attack and get on and hold some objectives anyway possible.

The only success I felt I did was managing to get your infantry to route from the trench lines.
That is what gave me the chance to get in therm trenches and contest some of the victory zones.
 
Those 3 on my left were indeed a pain to deal with. I decided on smoking them but that didn't help targeting either. My idea was to just keeping them obscured by smoke rounds until the end and or use the infantry guns against m. Guess they were ideally distanced to deal with the short barreled 75s.
Those AT guns on my right, which were closer to my forces, were dealt with quicker than I expected.

When I stepped into the battle, I had no clue about those guns and what you had been doing to block their vision. So I nicely ran a bunch of units right into their sights and Meatetr had a hay day on those units. Guess I should have reviewed turns from leathafaces side of the battle before finishing it up for him.
 
When I stepped into the battle, I had no clue about those guns and what you had been doing to block their vision. So I nicely ran a bunch of units right into their sights and Meatetr had a hay day on those units. Guess I should have reviewed turns from leathafaces side of the battle before finishing it up for him.
Yeah I saw those guns causing havoc when I watched a few of the turns, I guess they were in need of more smoke right about when I had to abandon my command ;-).
 
In hindsight I think this was the only large PBEM I played where there were lots of more early war AFVs in play. I had quite some fun watching all those short 75s ranging in shots, it was a real slugfest. I haven't made any proper analysis but I think the short 75s have an ideal max range of about 300m, after that they have trouble finding targets/range especially with all the dust and smoke.
 
I never go back and play them, But the CMx1 series with the Africa Corp battles were the best.

Some of the CMFI stuff, gives you that feel also

But nothing captures all that Early British stuff that was in that release of their 3 game in the first series.

Almost makes me want to go and get it running and play some. But I know better, too many things I dont like about the CMX1 series now to enjoy it.
 
Unfortunately I have never really played the CMx1 series, I think I tried one of those in my teenage years but turn based stuff was too slow for me at the time :D.
 
Round 4 AAR

After reading the above posts, I had a lot of thoughts. Here they are

RE Turn 1 Arty: I was one of the ones who did not have a turn 1 fire mission, but that was because I forgot to re-target my asset after having set a mission, and subsequently deciding to adjust it. So I cancelled the original, but forgot to plot the new mission. As a result I plotted it on turn 2, but the delay caused it to not FFE until turn 15 by which time my men were in the target zone. I believe some spotting rounds actually caused some friendly casualties before the cancel took effect.

Left-Center-Right: First, I'd like to define these zones. Left is the area to the front of the Trenches 4 & 5 and Mound 2. There are two center zones ( or 1 center and 2 rights, your choice). The left of these is the area that leads to the open space between Trench 3 and Trench 4. No walls, but dangerous from the left and the back-right. To the right of that is the other center zone (fronts to Trenches 2 and 3, which has fairly good cover, particularly once you get past the initial wall. This area does have exposure from the back left (which I learned the hard way), but almost none from the right, and none to or from Trench 5. Finally, the far right, which fronts to Trench 1 and Mound 1, and the right flank, and yes this is too far, and too exposed to the rear.

Turn 1: The decision I finally made was to run 1 platoon of Pz III M’s behind the buildings on the left, and remaining platoons of M’s and N’s into that right-center zone through the gaps in the wall. I prepositioned those platoons as far to the right as I could to start them closer to the existing gaps. Gave all tanks a 20 sec. pause with the N’s divided between firing smoke and HE while the M’s fired HE. Their targets were the two mounds. So as to not create a traffic jam at the two wall gaps, I ordered the left most platoon of N’s to remain in a depression I found in the setup zone. It wasn’t much and some got KO’d as did a few of the tanks in the other N platoon. The M’s made it into the safety of the area inside the wall unscathed. Two smoke plumes appeared, 1 behind each mound, so I had some initial luck with the area fire and my fighter-bomber.

Post Turn 1: For the next 15 minutes I fired more smoke, and traded shots with various spotted targets, mostly sound contacts, including some infantry in Trench 2, 3, and eventually 4. This quieted Raging Al’s ATG guns on Mounds 1 and 2, but gun tracks he positioned amoung the two building groups behind Trench 5 and Mound 2 got a number of surprise kills. The ones behind Trench 5 took out two of my M’s from the group on my left, and the tracks in the building group behind Mound 2 had some successes against tanks in the 3 platoons I moved into that area in the center-right. I was unable to get LOS back to these AFVs, so I used more smoke to protect my tanks. I also fired HE in their direction, and did get a lucky hit to knock out one of them.

When the infantry arrived, I decided to go left. Sent all three platoons into the cover of the two building groups in front of Mound2. The Hummels and PSW’s concentrated on the sound contacts in Trench 4 as engineers blew gaps into the walls in front of Mound 2. When the defenders in Trench 4 appeared to be suppressed with some routing, I advanced a mounted platoon to the base of Mound 2 where they unloaded, and moved onto Trench 4. Repeated this process for Trench 5, followed by the remaining tanks of two platoons. Raging Al had moved his replacement HT’s to his right, and his tanks straight down his left, so by swinging my tanks around the left of Mound 2, they were able to target his tracks, and clear out the remaining defenders behind Mound 2 without being exposed to his tanks.

Al sent his Stuarts charging straight down my right flank. I had three Pz III N’s on that flank that were there as a decoy, and to keep him honest. The Stuarts traded shots with my three tanks. The kill ratio was well in my favor before all three of my tanks died. I had about 6 more tanks, and about 6 Hummels/PSWs in the center-right area. These moved to flank his remaining Stuarts as they were cleaning up. The counter attack was very successful, eliminating all the remaining Stuarts.

With 5 mins left, I sent my remaining mounted infantry platoon on a diagonal from where they had originally moved, behind the cluster of buildings in front of Mound 2, to Trench 3. I did this slowly (1 or 2 vehicles each turn) out of concern for his Shermans which had LOS to that path from their positions behind Trench 2 and Mound 1. I was able to distract them using smoke, HE, and by exposing some of my tanks, Hummels, and PSWs from their positions in the area around Mound 2. One of the PSWs spotted a Sherman, and scored a kill. I also moved into Trench 2 using some Engineers, Half-Tracks, and Tanks that were part of the counter-attack against the Stuarts. Both trenches turned out to have been vacated from the earlier tank and Hummel/PSW fire directed at contacts that appeared. Three Pz III Ns and 2 Hummels, also part of the counter-attack, attempted to swing around Mound 1 and get behind his Shermans, but this was repelled by infantry located in Trench 1.

The game ended with Al’s GIs holding Trench 1 and Mound 1, while I had control of the remaining objectives.
 
Round 4 AAR

After reading the above posts, I had a lot of thoughts. Here they are

RE Turn 1 Arty: I was one of the ones who did not have a turn 1 fire mission, but that was because I forgot to re-target my asset after having set a mission, and subsequently deciding to adjust it. So I cancelled the original, but forgot to plot the new mission. As a result I plotted it on turn 2, but the delay caused it to not FFE until turn 15 by which time my men were in the target zone. I believe some spotting rounds actually caused some friendly casualties before the cancel took effect.

Left-Center-Right: First, I'd like to define these zones. Left is the area to the front of the Trenches 4 & 5 and Mound 2. There are two center zones ( or 1 center and 2 rights, your choice). The left of these is the area that leads to the open space between Trench 3 and Trench 4. No walls, but dangerous from the left and the back-right. To the right of that is the other center zone (fronts to Trenches 2 and 3, which has fairly good cover, particularly once you get past the initial wall. This area does have exposure from the back left (which I learned the hard way), but almost none from the right, and none to or from Trench 5. Finally, the far right, which fronts to Trench 1 and Mound 1, and the right flank, and yes this is too far, and too exposed to the rear.

Turn 1: The decision I finally made was to run 1 platoon of Pz III M’s behind the buildings on the left, and remaining platoons of M’s and N’s into that right-center zone through the gaps in the wall. I prepositioned those platoons as far to the right as I could to start them closer to the existing gaps. Gave all tanks a 20 sec. pause with the N’s divided between firing smoke and HE while the M’s fired HE. Their targets were the two mounds. So as to not create a traffic jam at the two wall gaps, I ordered the left most platoon of N’s to remain in a depression I found in the setup zone. It wasn’t much and some got KO’d as did a few of the tanks in the other N platoon. The M’s made it into the safety of the area inside the wall unscathed. Two smoke plumes appeared, 1 behind each mound, so I had some initial luck with the area fire and my fighter-bomber.

Post Turn 1: For the next 15 minutes I fired more smoke, and traded shots with various spotted targets, mostly sound contacts, including some infantry in Trench 2, 3, and eventually 4. This quieted Raging Al’s ATG guns on Mounds 1 and 2, but gun tracks he positioned amoung the two building groups behind Trench 5 and Mound 2 got a number of surprise kills. The ones behind Trench 5 took out two of my M’s from the group on my left, and the tracks in the building group behind Mound 2 had some successes against tanks in the 3 platoons I moved into that area in the center-right. I was unable to get LOS back to these AFVs, so I used more smoke to protect my tanks. I also fired HE in their direction, and did get a lucky hit to knock out one of them.

When the infantry arrived, I decided to go left. Sent all three platoons into the cover of the two building groups in front of Mound2. The Hummels and PSW’s concentrated on the sound contacts in Trench 4 as engineers blew gaps into the walls in front of Mound 2. When the defenders in Trench 4 appeared to be suppressed with some routing, I advanced a mounted platoon to the base of Mound 2 where they unloaded, and moved onto Trench 4. Repeated this process for Trench 5, followed by the remaining tanks of two platoons. Raging Al had moved his replacement HT’s to his right, and his tanks straight down his left, so by swinging my tanks around the left of Mound 2, they were able to target his tracks, and clear out the remaining defenders behind Mound 2 without being exposed to his tanks.

Al sent his Stuarts charging straight down my right flank. I had three Pz III N’s on that flank that were there as a decoy, and to keep him honest. The Stuarts traded shots with my three tanks. The kill ratio was well in my favor before all three of my tanks died. I had about 6 more tanks, and about 6 Hummels/PSWs in the center-right area. These moved to flank his remaining Stuarts as they were cleaning up. The counter attack was very successful, eliminating all the remaining Stuarts.

With 5 mins left, I sent my remaining mounted infantry platoon on a diagonal from where they had originally moved, behind the cluster of buildings in front of Mound 2, to Trench 3. I did this slowly (1 or 2 vehicles each turn) out of concern for his Shermans which had LOS to that path from their positions behind Trench 2 and Mound 1. I was able to distract them using smoke, HE, and by exposing some of my tanks, Hummels, and PSWs from their positions in the area around Mound 2. One of the PSWs spotted a Sherman, and scored a kill. I also moved into Trench 2 using some Engineers, Half-Tracks, and Tanks that were part of the counter-attack against the Stuarts. Both trenches turned out to have been vacated from the earlier tank and Hummel/PSW fire directed at contacts that appeared. Three Pz III Ns and 2 Hummels, also part of the counter-attack, attempted to swing around Mound 1 and get behind his Shermans, but this was repelled by infantry located in Trench 1.

The game ended with Al’s GIs holding Trench 1 and Mound 1, while I had control of the remaining objectives.
All I can say is....."WOW"!
 
JTimo played what I felt was the best battle and he did it without Arty from the start.

But again , one never knows. There was one defender that had all his units forward at the start of the battle.

The attacker did not pre- bomb and cover his units on turn one in that battle and his first wave of tanks were crushed before the battle even started.

It made me wonder about how others would have faired against that defence. It paid off for him in that battle, but it could have been a poor decision with a good attacker using his assets.

As I always say,, watching the battles play out 10 times has proven to me that the biggest unit that impacts play is the person running each force.
 
The dust was an important factor in the battle.

Yes. Seems like the general order of things is Spot, Shoot (watch shell go over the target by a lot), Lose Spot, Move or Die. Also, the smoke and dust from firing your round gives the opponent a good opportunity to relocate so that subsequent shots are at a ghost.

@SlySniper When I didn't see any tanks in the early part of the game, I knew they'd be coming as replacements, but I wasn't really factoring that in until it was almost too late. With around 15 mins left, and still not seeing any tank contacts, I knew they'd be arriving at the 10 min mark (that's just what you do in many of your designed games), and I'd better make my charge before they came into play. Problem was that something else always appeared that needed to be dealt with before making that move. Finally, at around the 11 min remaining time, I made the move, which went without incident, mainly because @Raging Al sent all of his Stuarts on a left flank (his left) charge. I really feel that if he turned them toward the Southeast they would have made a mess of my initial charge, and that would have prevented the subsequent moves with my other two mounted platoons. Would have been a far different result.

Finally, I'd like to say that this was probably the best attach/counter-attack scenario I have seen. Really enjoyed it.
 
I smile at how I get comments about my style of battles. For sure, there is traits that show up as to how one approaches things.

Plus, Since most of my stuff is short 30 minute actions, that leads to needing to get to the point quickly. So fire fights get brutal quickly.

As for a tendancy to bring on heavy reinforcements late for the defenders. (Guilty as charged)

Some battles need to let the defender die a slow death - not as much fun to defend as the defender. ( but needed for sure)

but I do like to give the defender a reward in battles and let them get some counter attack action late in the battle. (What can I say)

And now that you mention it, I really do do it alot.
 
I really feel that if he turned them toward the Southeast
Sorry, that would be me being directionally challenged. I meant to say "Southwest". My mounted infantry were starting their charge from the cluster of buildings directly in front of Mound 2. That was on the West side of the map. The Stuart replacements came in on the Northeast corner, so to interdict my charge they would have to have moved Southwest towards the center of the map where they would have LOS to the approach to Mound 2.
 
Sorry, that would be me being directionally challenged. I meant to say "Southwest". My mounted infantry were starting their charge from the cluster of buildings directly in front of Mound 2. That was on the West side of the map. The Stuart replacements came in on the Northeast corner, so to interdict my charge they would have to have moved Southwest towards the center of the map where they would have LOS to the approach to Mound 2.
@JTimo’s assault on my trenches was faultless and he thoroughly deserved the win. Most of my men were either depleted or routing from continuous exposure to his numerous HE and MG support assets and were able to offer very little resistance by the time he assaulted them. I’d pre-armed the majority of my split squads with the abundant bazookas available in the HT’s, but soon realised that JT was too wise to bring his assets within range before completely softening me up. Therefore, with my ATG’s and two of my MGC’s KO’d by turn 10 he had five unmolested minutes to pound the living crap out of the trenches before my cavalry arrived. When the Stuarts appeared at my left rear, I decided to throw them high speed at his right flank, up on the isolated high flat plateau, which consisted of just three MkIIIN’s with the short 75’s. I expected casualties, as I had such a long distance to cover, but by getting them into close range quickly I assumed their 37mm would be able to quickly overwhelm this thin grey line and I’d be able to wheel right and turn my remaining tanks on his thin skins from the flank. My 4:1 favourable odds were reduced to 3:1 as I lost three Stuart’s during my charge, but I now had nine 37mm guns within 150 yards and was ready to make fast work of the MKIII’s. Wrong! Over the next four minutes it took seven hits to kill one of them, eight hits to KO another and a whopping nine hits to neutralise the third! By which time all surprise/initiative was lost as JT was able to swing some of his middle ground tanks and Stummels to start blunting my counter attack. Not long after that my entire Stuart force was KO’d. If anything, I’d like to think that they died delaying the attack on trench/mound 1, but it was incredibly frustrating seeing them score hit after hit without a KO. Ah well, c’est le guerre. Well done, JT
 
Over the next four minutes it took seven hits to kill one of them, eight hits to KO another and a whopping nine hits to neutralise the third!
WOW! I noticed they were shaking off penetrations, but didn't take a detailed enough look to see that it was that many hits. While they were mobile, I kept moving them back to take advantage of the ground relative to your tanks. I think Pz IIIs have pretty good turret armor, so that may have been a factor.

Great game Al. I didn't think I'd get a win until my tanks on my left flank got along side Mound 2, and were able to clear out the rear of that objective.
 
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Getting the American infantry to break from the trench line was not hard if you could get some units up and firing on the trenches.

So again, it comes down to how much time did you have to do that.

i will stay with the concept, that the best attack would be to clear the American fire as quickly as possible that had a view to the middle of the map. push up the middle, focus on the center trenches and once they were broken , then focus on swinging to the left or right flank.
 
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