The Relationship between Soft Factors, Morale & Fatigue

[Josey Wales]

The Relationship between Soft Factors, Morale & Fatigue


Introduction

Whether selecting unit attributes in a quick battle or whether in game wondering if you should use your +1 Leadership squad or +2 Motivation squad to assault a farmhouse. it can be difficult to make an informed decision due to the fact that there is not a lot of information in the manual which explains how the attributes of Experience, Leadership, Motivation and Fitness (hereby collectively known as the 'Soft Factors') affect certain game concepts such as Morale, Suppression, Firepower and Fatigue.

The forums can be slightly misleading as some posts describe exactly how something works whilst others are more how people feel something is working and it can be difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff.

The information below is based on a painstaking process using the editor to separate out the impact of different factors by isolating them and testing them under different conditions. By isolating and testing these factors, the mechanics behind the concepts of Morale, Suppression, Accuracy, C2 and Fatigue start to reveal themselves and after several red herrings, dead ends and lots of repitition the information below has been teased out from the game.

The editor used was the one for Fortress Italy v2.00 Engine 4.0.

SPOILER ALERT - if you prefer the murkiness of not knowing how the Soft Factors affect gameplay then please stop reading.

Having said that the following information does not quantify the game concepts affected by the soft factors but instead generalises as what is likely to happen within a certain concept under certain conditions to units with high and low values for the soft factors.


Morale

Before being able to explain the characteristics of the 'Soft Factors', it is imperative to understand how Morale works in the game.

Morale reflects the psychological state of a unit and determines its ability to respond to orders and fight.

Morale states from highest to lowest are;

Ok > Cautious > Nervous > Rattled > (Shaken) > (Panic) > Broken​

States shown in brackets () are temporary states.

The states Ok through to Nervous are simple gradations and a Nervous unit will not behave differently from an Ok one.

Rattled troops which become Pinned (or highly suppressed) will dash for safety, even if they are stationary when they become Pinned (or highly suppressed).

Shaken troops will cower in their current position in the hope that the pressure will ease. They will not respond to orders or fire their weapons.

Note: Shaken troops observed running for cover have been Pinned (or highly suppressed) in the Rattled state prior to becoming Shaken.

Panicked troops will try and run away from the perceived threat to save their own hides. They will not respond to orders or fire their weapons.

Shaken and Panicked states are temporary and will eventually revert back to one of the other persistent states depending on the situation and the Experience, Leadership and Motivation of the unit.

Broken troops will respond to orders but are 'Brittle' and will quickly become Shaken or Panicked if fired upon. Broken troops will remain Brittle for the remainder of the battle irrespective of their Experience, Leadership, Motivation and Fitness.


Morale is affected by 2 conditions of the battlefield and each of these conditions impact on Morale in different ways.

1. Combat Stress

Combat Stress has a persistent impact on Morale and is caused by casualty build up.

Casualties sustained reduce the Morale of the unit for the remainder of the game and is therefore known as a persistent effect.

Morale affected in this way cannot be regained (except under one specific condition - see Leadership). The impact of Combat Stress depends on the number of casualties sustained over time and the Experience, Leadership and Motivation of the unit.

Not only does taking casualties effect the Morale of the unit directly impacted, other units organisationally closely connected are also affected in the same way but to a lesser extent. The persistent Morale effect of casualty build up only effects other units via organisational connection regardless of geographical proximity.

Example 1 - 1st and 2nd Sqd of 1st Plt are separated by 500m. As 1st squad sustains casualties and suffers a persistent Morale impact, 2nd Sqd will also suffer a persistent Morale impact even though it is 500m away and has no LOS to 1st Sqd.

Example 2 - 1st Sqd of 1st Plt is within 10m of 3rdSqd of 2nd Plt. 3rd Sqd of 2nd Plt receives incoming fire and half of the unit is wiped out and the Sqd is instantly Shaken. 1st Sqd of 1st Plt receives no impact to their persistent Morale state due to the fact that they are in a different Platoon. 2nd Plt would have to take far more casualties before any of 1st Plt become affected.

The way that Combat Stress is distributed to other units is vertical between different platoons and companies although it is horizontal between units of the same platoon.


2. Combat Shock

Combat Shock has a temporary impact on Morale and is caused by suppression.​

Suppression has a temporary impact on Morale and the affect is removed once the suppression is lifted.

The duration the unit remains suppressed for depends on the amount of incoming Firepower, the immediate casualties sustained, Experience & Leadership of the unit.

The temporary impact on Morale of being suppressed depends on the amount of incoming Firepower, the immediate casualties sustained and the Experience, Leadership & Motivation of the unit.​

Suppression Indicator

The Suppression Indicator is not merely a measure of incoming fire, more accurately it represents the units perception as to how much danger it is in based on the incoming Firepower, the immediate casualties sustained, and the Experience, Leadership & Motivation of the unit.

Inexperienced, poorly led and unmotivated units suffer the greatest Morale impact from being suppressed whilst inexperienced and poorly led units can remain suppressed for sometime after the last shot was fired in their direction.

Pinned

If the Suppression Indicator becomes full the unit becomes Pinned. Stationary Pinned (or highly suppressed) troops will return fire but will not respond to movement orders until the suppression has reduced.

Troops which become Pinned (or highly suppressed) whilst moving to a waypoint will attempt to dash for cover. If no cover is nearby, they will hit the deck.

Rattled troops which become Pinned (or highly suppressed) will dash for safety, even if they are stationary when they become Pinned.

Experienced and well led troops recover from being Pinned quicker than inexperienced or poorly led troops.

​

C2 - Command & Control

C2, or Command and Control, reflects the effect of having a unit being able to receive orders from and deliver information to its HQ team.

Being within a C2 link does not provide resistance to the persistent impact on Morale caused by Combat Stress.

Being within a close C2 link (Close Visual/Voice) does provide resistance to the impact on Morale caused by Combat Shock - troops within C2 range of their HQ unit are less affected by the temporary impact of suppression upon Morale as they are less stressed by being shot at and the immediate impact of seeing team/squadmates killed & wounded is reduced.

More experienced units pass on information to their buddies and superiors quicker than less experienced units. This includes verbal, visual and radio communications.

The range of visual and audio C2 is fixed for all Soft Factors, Morale and Fatigue states but will vary by terrain. In open ground;

: Voice range < 50m (unless the HQ is hiding in which case voice range drops to <25m)
: Close visual range <100m
​

​

Experience

Experience reflects the amount of training and combat experience the unit has.

Experience levels from least experience/training to most experience are;

Conscript > Green > Regular > Veteran > Crack > Elite​

Experience has 6 characteristics which impact on the unit;

1. Spotting - troops with higher experience are able to spot enemy contacts sooner than less experienced troops.

2. Firepower - higher experienced troops will engage at longer ranges and have greater accuracy than less experienced troops. They therefore tend to cause more casualties to the enemy than their less experienced counterparts during a firefight.

3. Resistance to Combat Stress - more experienced troops are less affected by the psychological impact of losing team/squadmates.

This characteristic is cumulative with Leadership and Motivation.

4. Resistance to Combat Shock - experienced troops are less affected by the temporary impact of suppression upon Morale. They are more used to being shot at and better desensitised to the immediate impact of seeing team/squadmates killed & wounded than less experienced troops.

This characteristic is cumulative with Leadership and Motivation.

5. Suppression Recovery - experienced troops recover quicker from being suppressed (including being Pinned), they realise when the incoming fire has shifted away from them sooner than less experienced troops do.

This characteristic is cumulative with Leadership.

6. More experienced units pass on information to their buddies and superiors quicker than less experienced units. This includes verbal, visual and radio communications.
​

Leadership

Leadership reflects the quality of NCO's or other team leaders in the team or squad to organise and support the troops. Leaders can be of varying quality.

Leadership is shown as a simple modifier ranging from;

-2 > -1 > 0 > +1 > +2
​

Note: A Leadership modifier only applies to the unit with the Modifier (like all other modifiers). In other words it does not filter down to sub-ordinate units (see HQ Leadership Modifier Example).

Leadership has 3 characteristics which effect unit behaviour under duress;

1. Resistance to Combat Stress - better led troops are less affected by the psychological impact of losing team/squadmates.

This characteristic is cumulative with Experience and Motivation.

2. Resistance to Combat Shock - well led troops are less affected by the temporary impact of suppression upon Morale. The NCO's are better at encouraging the troops under fire and getting them to remember their training when faced with the immediate impact of seeing team/squadmates killed & wounded.

This characteristic is cumulative with Experience and Motivation.

3. Suppression Recovery - well led troops recover quicker from being suppressed (including being Pinned), they realise when the incoming fire has shifted away from them sooner than poorly led troops do.

This characteristic is cumulative with Experience.
​

Unlike the characteristics denoted by Experience, if the Leader of a team or squad is incapacitated, the Leadership value of the unit will change to that of the next most senior member who steps up as the Leader. This value can go up as well as down, for example, a unit with a +1 Leader incapacitated and replaced by a -1 Leader will suffer a hit on Morale which may be enough to cause a persistent drop in the unit's Morale state. Similarly however, if a -2 Leader is incapacitated and replaced with a 0 Leader, the unit will receive a boost in Morale which may be enough to cause a persistent increase in the unit's Morale state.

​

Note: In Engine v4.0 manual page 68 it states that a Leadership bonus will help "direct fire to be more effective". However, this has not been possible to reproduce using various tests. Whereas the difference in accuracy between Crack units and Green units is repeatable and obvious, the effect of Leadership on accuracy is not apparent.

HQ Leadership Modifier Example

Reading some posts, there is a lot of confusion over how this Modifier works with HQ units. So I will clarify it here.

The Leadership (Ldrshp) modifier for all units (from Btn Hqs through to Plt Hqs down to squads and teams) only effects the unit that the modifier is for, in the same way that a -2 Fitness modifier only effects the fitness of the unit that the modifier is for.

In fact, it helps to think of the Leadership modifier in the same was as the Fitness modifier. An unfit Plt HQ does not make all of the squads in that platoon unfit aswell.

So a squad with a -1 Ldrshp modifier is not offset by the +1 Ldrshp modifier of its Plt HQ. The squad will still suffer the penalties of having -1 Ldrshp.

So how does having a Plt HQ with a poor leader affect the performance of the Platoon?

This is best illustrated with an example;

Lt Bike is the Plt Leader of 1st Plt. He has a Leadership modifier of -2. All 3 of the squads in 1st Plt are Regulars with average ability NCO's so no Ldrshp modifiers for the squads. For reference 1st Plt HQ is also Regular.

1st Plt are on a patrol and 1st Squad makes contact with an enemy force. After a couple of minutes, the casualties from 1st Sqd begin to mount. Not only does this have a persistent Morale affect on 1st Sqd, it also has a persistent Morale affect on the other 2 Squads and the Plt HQ because of their close organisational link.

However, because the Plt HQ has Lt Bike with his -2 Ldrshp modifier, it suffers a greater impact on Morale than 2nd or 3rd Sqd does from the build up of 1st Sqds casualties.

After another minute of combat, the persistent morale states of the Platoon are;

Plt HQ - Rattled
1st Squad - Rattled
2nd Squad - Nervous
3rd Squad - Nervous
​

As the combatants manoeuvre for position, the Plt HQ comes under fire. As the HQ team is already Rattled, it doesn't take much suppression to drop their Morale state temporarily into Shaken.

Now that the HQ unit is Shaken, the C2 link between the HQ and the 3 squads is cut. This makes the squads more vulnerable to the Morale effects of suppression (see C2 - Command & Control).

As 1st Squad is already under suppressive fire, its Morale state instanteously drops from Rattled to Shaken because of the loss of the C2 link (see C2 - Command & Control).

The HQ will take longer to recover from the supression than it normally would for a Regular unit because of its -2 Ldrshp modifier, meaning that as a consequence, the C2 link is broken for longer.

So we now have the following situation after 5 minutes;

Plt HQ - Shaken
1st Squad - Shaken
2nd Squad - Nervous
3rd Squad - Nervous
​

If we rewind the clock and give Lt Bike +2 Ldrshp modifier, then re-run under exactly the same circumstances the situation would have been after 5 minutes;

Plt HQ - Nervous
1st Squad - Rattled
2nd Squad - Nervous
3rd Squad - Nervous
​

This is because the Plt HQ would not have been so affected by the casualty build up of 1st Sqd so that when the HQ came under some suppressive fire, it was still in a high enough Morale state not to become Shaken by it and therefore the C2 link between the HQ and the Squads and the benefits it brings (see C2 - Command & Control) would still be intact.​

Motivation

Motivation reflects the units dedication to the cause and their willingness to sacrifice themselves for their squad mates and commanders.

Motivation from best to worst ranges as;

Poor > Low > Normal > High > Extreme > Fanatic
​

Motivation has 3 characteristics which effect unit behaviour under duress;

1. Resistance to Combat Stress - better motivated troops are less affected by the psychological impact of losing team/squadmates.

This characteristic is cumulative with Experience and Leadership.

2. Resistance to Combat Shock - highly motivated troops are less affected by the temporary impact of suppression upon Morale. They are less psychologically affected by being shot at and better desensitised to the immediate impact of seeing team/squadmates killed & wounded than their less motivated counterparts.

This characteristic is cumulative with Experience and Leadership.

3. Resistance to Panic and Breaking - highly motivated troops can be Shaken but are less likely to Panic and try to run from the fight to save themselves. They are also more likely to recover to a positive morale state after being Shaken than less motivated troops and are less likely to become Broken and Brittle.

Fanatic units will not surrender.
​

Fatigue

Fatigue is the physical effect of running around and using up energy.

Fatigue states best to worst are;

Rested > Ready > Tiring > Tired > Fatigued > Exhausted​

Tired troops cannot Fast Move.

Fatigued troops cannot Fast, Assault or Hunt Move.

Exhausted troops cannot Fast, Assault, Hunt or Quick Move.

More tired troops do not move slower than less tired troops moving at the same movement command, ie Unfit troops moving at Fast Move, cover distance at the same rate as Fit troops moving at Fast Move, they just won't be able to keep up that pace for as long.

Keeping troops stationary recovers their fatigue relatively quickly. Hiding troops has no additional benefit.

Troops will recover fatigue whilst at the Move but it is at a slower rate.

Experience, Leadership and Motivation do not effect Fatigue states or recovery times.

Fatigue has no effect on Morale either from Combat Stress or Combat Shock.

Fatigue has no effect on accuracy nor the range at which targets are engaged at.


Fitness

Fitness represents a units physical resistance to Fatigue.

Fitness states from best to worst are;

Fit > Weakened > Unfit​

Fitness has 3 characteristics which effect unit behaviour under physical exertion;

1. Fitter troops tire less quickly from Fast Move (sprinting), Slow Move (crawling) and Quick Move (jogging).

2. Fitter troops recover from tired states sooner than less fit troops.

3. Weakened and Unfit troops recover fatigue on the Move extremely slowly.​

​

Closing

All of the conclusions made above have been arrived at through thorough isolation and testing procedures which can be backed up by video evidence. There are 2 videos later in this thread which demonstrate some of the concepts covered.

There is more stuff in the CMx2 engine to dig up than what has been uncovered here but for now I'm unable to go further into this rabbit hole.

Hopefully the information presented here clears up some of the historical confusions that have been around on the various forums. It may also affect the way in which unit purchases are thought about, and hopefully it allows players to make better informed tactical decisions and enhance the way their game is played.

Josey Wales updated 24/09/17

 

[A Canadian Cat]

That looks awesome. Well done. All of that jibes with my personal feelings and experience. I have not rigorously tested any of it but it all matches. The only thing I would have said differently is the effect of being in C2 during casualties. My feelings are that it helps but if your testing says not then I believe you

Someone once said and I swear I have seen it (but never recorded it or tried to reproduce it) that over time troops in C2 can recover from Rattled to Nervous to Cautious. Have you tested for that? We would be talking about half hour of no combat kind of times. I am curious to hear your thoughts.

 

[Josey Wales]

@A Canadian Cat

Thanks a lot. I have read some of your posts on this topic and they make the most sense as to what I have observed.

I'll answer your second question first.

The image below shows a Veteran US Infantry squad at 12:09pm having recently taken a beating and losing 8 men from the original 12. The 4 men remaining are being led by Private Eisier who having poor leadership skills is giving the squad a -1 modifier to its Leadership. The squad is in a Nervous Morale state. There is no incoming fire and the squad is not being suppressed so the Nervous state is persistent and not temporary. The squad is adjacent to its Platoon HQ and you can see in the C2 link that it is close visual and audio contact with the Platoon HQ.

The next image shows the same squad at 13:40. This image is taken 91 minutes after the above image. None of the units have moved. You can see that the Morale state of the unit is still Nervous. For reference, the Platoon HQ is a Crack unit.

The conclusion is that the persistent Morale state does not recover under any circumstances (except one unusual situation mention in my OP under Leadership). This is a repeatable experiment and the result is always the same regardless of Experience, Leadership, Motivation or C2 link.

To answer your other question about a unit being within C2 affecting a persistent Morale state we can simply move the Platoon HQ away to see if the Morale state of the Veteran squad reduces.

In the image below we can see that the squad is not within the C2 link of its HQ or any other superior unit and we also see no change to the persistent Morale state.

We can conclude that being within C2 has no effect on persistent Morale.

If you are noticing the Morale state of a unit change when the C2 link is either removed or re-established then it is because the unit is being suppressed and thereby suffering a Morale reduction from the effect of being suppressed. Of course it may be taking casualties as well and suffering a persistent Morale reduction in addition, but the C2 link only counters the affect on Morale from suppression, not from the affect being caused by casualties being taken.

I hope this clarifies things. I've really tried to nail it down to the cold hard facts.

JW

 

[MOS:96B2P]

Wow, interesting stuff. Thanks for doing this. A lot of interesting material to read through and think about.

I did some testing on fatigue back in September of 2016 in CMFI and thought I noticed that fatigue can also add one bar to the suppression meter. Example: Tired troops using Hunt or Slow will show one bar on the suppression meter. Just curious if you also observed this.

 

[Josey Wales]

@MOS:96B2P

Thank you. Your point is a really interesting one. Initial tests seem to indicate that there is indeed a single suppression bar for some units moving at Slow (crawling) or Hunt.

My initial observations seems to indicate that standard rifle squads are unaffected, but HQ's, XO's, mortar teams and MG teams are and it seems to be irrespective of Soft Factors, Fatigue, Morale or C2.

This could indicate that those affected teams are marginally less well suited to those types of movement commands (crawling through the dirt encumbered by your Mortar components is likely more stressful than crawling with just a rifle).

Not sure why HQ's are affected, it could be because of the radio, but even XO teams receive a penalty - perhaps its just officers not wanting to get dirty!

I'll dig a little deeper, let me know if you find anything.

Good spot!


EDIT - it's a really odd concept. All small teams seem to get this bar when ordered to Slow or Hunt move. A squad typically will not get this bar, but if you split the squad up into teams, the individual teams will?! The effect persists for several minutes after the unit stops.

It's even happened with a jeep and a tank moving at Slow or Hunt. There are no enemy contacts and it happens irrespective of factors or C2.

I can't think of a good reason for this, it seems like a bug to me unless someone has another idea?

 

[A Canadian Cat]

The image below shows a Veteran US Infantry squad at 12:09pm having recently taken a beating and losing 8 men from the original 12. The 4 men remaining are being led by Private Eisier who having poor leadership skills is giving the squad a -1 modifier to its Leadership. The squad is in a Nervous Morale state. There is no incoming fire and the squad is not being suppressed so the Nervous state is persistent and not temporary. The squad is adjacent to its Platoon HQ and you can see in the C2 link that it is close visual and audio contact with the Platoon HQ.

<snip>

The next image shows the same squad at 13:40. This image is taken 91 minutes after the above image. None of the units have moved. You can see that the Morale state of the unit is still Nervous. For reference, the Platoon HQ is a Crack unit.

The conclusion is that the persistent Morale state does not recover under any circumstances (except one unusual situation mention in my OP under Leadership). This is a repeatable experiment and the result is always the same regardless of Experience, Leadership, Motivation or C2 link.

Perfect. Must be I was confusing one unit for another or forgetting what the state was. Thanks for poking at that one.

To answer your other question about a unit being within C2 affecting a persistent Morale state we can simply move the Platoon HQ away to see if the Morale state of the Veteran squad reduces.

In the image below we can see that the squad is not within the C2 link of its HQ or any other superior unit and we also see no change to the persistent Morale state.

We can conclude that being within C2 has no effect on persistent Morale.

If you are noticing the Morale state of a unit change when the C2 link is either removed or re-established then it is because the unit is being suppressed and thereby suffering a Morale reduction from the effect of being suppressed. Of course it may be taking casualties as well and suffering a persistent Morale reduction in addition, but the C2 link only counters the affect on Morale from suppression, not from the affect being caused by casualties being taken.

That was not what I meant. I was wondering about units taking casulties while in C2 vs taking the same casulties while not in C2. For example if a squad took four casulties when out of C2, would it effect their morale more then if they took them while in C2. That was my impression but never tested.

Basically what I "feel" is that a unit taking casualties will fair better if they are in C2 than if they are not. Clearly that is the case for suppression recovery and other things as you demonstrated so it very well could be my feeling is coming from the fact that they clearly are performing better when in C2 but that may or may not also count towards if they get shaken or panicked or not or how quickly they drop down a level.

I hope this clarifies things. I've really tried to nail it down to the cold hard facts.

JW

Nice work - thanks.

 

[Meat Grinder]

Post of the year material here. This should be pinned. Well done, @Josey Wales . Bookmarked.

 

[Josey Wales]

@A Canadian Cat

Ok I see. Yes you are correct in that being in C2 does give a resistance to the taking of casualties when they occur. It is done through the mechanic of Suppression.

I have indicated that a unit in C2 with its superior has a resistance to suppression, from the OP;

'C2 does provide resistance to the Morale effects of suppression - troops within C2 range of their HQ unit are less affected by the temporary impact of suppression upon Morale.'

At the moment a unit sustains a casualty, the suppression indicator jumps up and the unit suffers an impact on its Morale (dependent on other Suppression factors <such as incoming Firepower & additional casualties>, Experience, Motivation & C2 link).

The mechanics go like this;

Casualty sustained > Suppression Indicator increase > Morale impact

So I think what you are saying is correct, and I think what I am saying is correct;

My interpretation of your meaning - "sustaining casualties causes a temporary affect on Morale that can be mitigated by being in C2"

My interpretation of my meaning - "C2 provides resistance to the temporary effects of suppression on Morale"

I think we are saying the same thing because the moment a casualty is sustained, there is an effect on Suppression.

 

[A Canadian Cat]

Ok I see. Yes you are correct in that being in C2 does give a resistance to the taking of casualties when they occur. It is done through the mechanic of Suppression.

<snip>
Casualty sustained > Suppression Indicator increase > Morale impact

So I think what you are saying is correct, and I think what I am saying is correct;

My interpretation of your meaning - "sustaining casualties causes a temporary affect on Morale that can be mitigated by being in C2"

My interpretation of my meaning - "C2 provides resistance to the temporary effects of suppression on Morale"

I think we are saying the same thing because the moment a casualty is sustained, there is an effect on Suppression.

Sounds like it. I was not claiming my impression was real I was wondering if your test showed that my impression was real or bugus. Sounds like the way it works is being in C2 helps mitigate suppression and suppression is what leads to morale problems. Which you tested and showed. So it means that taking casulties while out of C2 *is* worse than when in C2 because of the mechanism you described.

At work so cannot (should not watch the video now. Thanks for this work.

 

[Josey Wales]

@A Canadian Cat

Yes your observation is correct, the immediate impact of seeing a team/squadmate killed or wounded is worse if the affected unit is outside of C2.

I've made a few edits to the OP in red to help clarify things a bit more based on our conversation and observations so that the immediate impact of a team/squadmate being killed on Morale is separated distinctly out from the persistent effect upon Morale of having lost a team/squadmate.

 

[SlySniper]

THIS IS AMAZING STUFF.

I have wanted to break down these things from the moment we started playing CMX2

Just too lazy to try and do it, you have put a lot of work into this.

thanks for sharing.

Now my question, which I have wondered for a long time. What is the best thing to do with them -1, -2 leaders??
Is it worth getting them killed, hoping that a unit might pick up better sub leaders.??

 

[Meat Grinder]

FRAG 'EM!!

Nah, it could be that HQ casualties might cause extra morale loss to their nearby subordinate units?

 

[Josey Wales]

@Meat Grinder Thanks buddy

@SlySniper - thanks, in short perhaps yes! Or maybe not!

First thing to know is that the Leadership modifier only applies to the unit of the leader (you probably already know this but I'll say it here for the benefit of anyone reading who isn't clear on this). For example Lt Bean has -2 Leadership and is the leader of 1st Plt HQ. His Leadership modifier does not affect the rifle squads under his command, only the 3 other troops in his HQ unit have to put up with his poor team leading skills

If he is killed, the assistant Sgt Conan takes over and he happens to have a 0 Leadership modifier meaning the following benefits;

1. The Plt Hq's is less effected by the Morale effect of casualty build up and suppression.

2. The Plt HQ will recover quicker from being suppressed


However the unit also suffers some disadvantages;

1. The Plt HQ will have taken a persistent Morale impact for the loss of a member (this may be offset by the increased Leadership of Sgt Conan)

2. As @Meat Grinder pointed out, other nearby units either geographically or organisationally may take a persistent Morale hit.

3. The Plt HQ has lost 25% of its Firepower

The main problem I see is guaranteeing that it's the -2 Leader that's hit and not someone else like the radio operator which could be a disaster. If its a squad leader how do you ensure its him that's hit and not the bazooka man or machine gunner? I don't suppose you can but if it does happen there can sometimes be a benefit as stated above.

 

[SlySniper]

FRAG 'EM!!

My thoughts exactly.

Actually, I have just used them as any other leader. Not knowing for sure how they were impacting units.
And I have seen them die and the unit leader rating go up, which just cracks me up.

But thanks Josey, it at least gives me a little insight as to their value.

So maybe suicide mission into Meat grinders Mg nest is not the best used of my -2 Leaders.
But they at least died as hero's that way instead of the cowards they are.

 

[rocketman]

Fantastic stuff @Josey Wales and a big thank you for devoting time to this topic. I will pass it along to a couple of non-FGM members I play with and with whom I have had discussions regarding this many times.

 

[MOS:96B2P]

@Josey Wales This would be an interesting topic to also post on the BFC forum.

 

[Josey Wales]

@rocketman many thanks

@MOS:96B2P yes but not yet, there's still things I want to add and update. The more I delve into this the more sophisticated I realise the inner workings are.

 

[Badger73]

This is very good. I’ve been discussing this with “Bulltepoint” from the Battlefront Forums. Here are some of our thoughts.

1. It’s appears counter-intuitive that rattled or exhausted troops aim just as well as fresh troops, and that they also suffer no morale penalties from being exhausted. It seems that coming under fire when exhausted is no worse than taking fire while rested. It seems that being rested matters only for maneuver, not morale.
2. It seems odd that veterancy makes troops faster at communicating in C2 but leadership doesn't. We thought leadership played a big part in communicating up and down the chain of command. Is it correct to think that leadership in this game is not about all the skills necessary to be a leader, but only about how good you are at inspiring people under your command?
3. It surprised us that a platoon HQ's leadership doesn't do anything for the rifle squads under his command. Brittle troops don’t seem to benefit from +1 leadership of platoon HQs but rather by giving the individual squads a leadership bonus instead.
4. It also seems that if you can choose between +1 leadership and +1 motivation, you should always go for the motivation bonus, since it does the same as leadership, but doesn't change if the leader is knocked out.
5. Can we cover the behavior of vehicles depending on their motivation? When a tank with decent motivation spots a threat, it generally engages, but with -1 and -2 motivation, the tank will more often pop smoke and reverse out of there instead of fighting according to our experience.

Great research @Josey Wales. Thanks for testing and posting.

 

[SlySniper]

This is very good. I’ve been discussing this with “Bulltepoint” from the Battlefront Forums. Here are some of our thoughts.

1. It’s appears counter-intuitive that rattled or exhausted troops aim just as well as fresh troops, and that they also suffer no morale penalties from being exhausted. It seems that coming under fire when exhausted is no worse than taking fire while rested. It seems that being rested matters only for maneuver, not morale.
2. It seems odd that veterancy makes troops faster at communicating in C2 but leadership doesn't. We thought leadership played a big part in communicating up and down the chain of command. Is it correct to think that leadership in this game is not about all the skills necessary to be a leader, but only about how good you are at inspiring people under your command?
3. It surprised us that a platoon HQ's leadership doesn't do anything for the rifle squads under his command. Brittle troops don’t seem to benefit from +1 leadership of platoon HQs but rather by giving the individual squads a leadership bonus instead.
4. It also seems that if you can choose between +1 leadership and +1 motivation, you should always go for the motivation bonus, since it does the same as leadership, but doesn't change if the leader is knocked out.
5. Can we cover the behavior of vehicles depending on their motivation? When a tank with decent motivation spots a threat, it generally engages, but with -1 and -2 motivation, the tank will more often pop smoke and reverse out of there instead of fighting according to our experience.

Great research @Josey Wales. Thanks for testing and posting.

Thus the reason this is great research.
Its not applying what we think these things should be doing, its just saying what the game programming is really doing.
no, maybe its not correct for how it should impact things in the real world.
Its just letting us understand how its impacting things in the game world.

So we can now make our decisions on what its really doing.
and lets not start demanding BF change their programming to get this to what we think it should be. face it, they cannot keep up with the demands as is now without adding more things about the game that are just not perfect.

 

[Meat Grinder]

Well, I think I'll stop buying up the leadership of Platoon HQs to +2 and instead buy up the individual squad's leadership bonus. I always (wrongly) assumed that subordinate units benefited from the HQ's leadership bonus, like they did in the Squad Leader board game (when stacked with a leader).