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Vox

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This is fantastic information. what Im wondering and cant find any information about is the HQ control panel.CHQ.jpg specifically what personal, experience condition morale and suppression are telling you and if it is useful information or if it can give you any deeper insight into your platoons Mental health or any thing else for that matter. It would be stupid if this was just redundant information that your +2+1 or 0's already tell you.
 

Josey Wales

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Thanks Vox. My own understanding is that it's a unit overview at the platoon level so won't tell you anything new that you can't get by looking at the individual squads/fireteams. I never really use it but perhaps it comes into its own in really huge battles??
 
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Vox

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So for the suppression for example do you think if 50% of your platoon was suppressed then the bar would be half full? that kind of thing?
 

Josey Wales

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Its a great question, suppression is a very dynamic thing and I admit to not even thinking to look at what effect suppression has on this indicator. If you did some testing, I'd be really interested to know what you find.
 
F

Falke88

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Well, I think I'll stop buying up the leadership of Platoon HQs to +2 and instead buy up the individual squad's leadership bonus. I always (wrongly) assumed that subordinate units benefited from the HQ's leadership bonus, like they did in the Squad Leader board game (when stacked with a leader).

Just want to add something here.
I kinda think it is logical that squads don't benefit from a platoons leadership. When I was in duty as a grunt in a squad I was only affected by what my squadleader (oberfeldwebel) told me. He was in contact with the platoon leader and I never really knew what the platoon leader said in a motivational manner. My Squad leader told us what the Platoon leader ordered but motivational speeches where only coming from him and not personally from the platoon leader to us.

Mybe the Devs had the same idea for this
 

Bulletpoint

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Just want to add something here.
I kinda think it is logical that squads don't benefit from a platoons leadership. When I was in duty as a grunt in a squad I was only affected by what my squadleader (oberfeldwebel) told me. He was in contact with the platoon leader and I never really knew what the platoon leader said in a motivational manner. My Squad leader told us what the Platoon leader ordered but motivational speeches where only coming from him and not personally from the platoon leader to us.

Mybe the Devs had the same idea for this

I don't think anyone said it wasn't logical. Some of us were just surprised, because we always assumed the game worked in a different way.
 

domfluff

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Just a thought regarding leadership causing "direct fire to be more effective"

I'm not sure this is actually untrue - Leadership may have no modifier on accuracy, but if it keeps them from being suppressed then it definitely helps keep the volume of fire up.

Similar will apply to the HQ leadership modifier - bad leaders will drop out of C2 more often, since they'll be pinned or running away, surely? Their leadership won't pass down, but they will end up out of Command and Control more often.
 

MOS:96B2P

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Just a thought regarding leadership causing "direct fire to be more effective"

I'm not sure this is actually untrue - Leadership may have no modifier on accuracy, but if it keeps them from being suppressed then it definitely helps keep the volume of fire up.


In the manual: Leadership bonuses help "direct fire to be more effective". Engine Manual v4.0 page 68.
 

domfluff

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Sure, but does "more effective" mean "more accurate"? Or even "kills more people"?

Winning fire superiority by keeping the volume of fire up is definitely "more effective"...
 

Josey Wales

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@domfluff

Whilst the Leadership modifier does 'empty' out the suppression indicator quicker at higher values (Suppression Recovery), being within C2 of an HQ unit has no affect on the suppression indicator.

Experience also empties out the suppression indicator quicker at higher values (Suppression Recovery) so you could make exactly the same case for Experience as you have for Leadership based on this characteristic.
 
P

PJMaybe

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Really interesting this. Thanks for putting so much time into it. I always wondered... is there any point in selecting anything other than the weakest fitness of a vehicle crew? Presumably it will only have an impact if the crew abandon the the vehicle? Or does it affect how well they operate it?
 

domfluff

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From memory, no, but it also doesn't change their cost (or change it by a lot) - changing the motivation or fitness of off-map artillery certainly doesn't change their cost.
 

Josey Wales

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@PJMaybe thanks.

I've just had a play around in the CMFI editor;

A Regular squad with 0 Leadership & 0 Motivation modifier is 2 points cheaper when Fitness is set to 'Weakened' and 4 points cheaper when set to 'Unfit'

A Regular Stuart tank crew with 0 Leadership & 0 Motivation modifier is 0 points cheaper when Fitness is set to 'Weakened' and 1 point cheaper when set to 'Unfit'

The tiredness of the unit only affects the movement options available to that unit. So to give an answer to your question, dropping a vehicle crews Fitness level to 'Unfit' will have a no impact on the performance of that unit whilst it remains in the vehicle.

However, as you have already pointed out, you may run into issues if you wish to dismount the unit and use them as scouts, or they bail and you want them to return to the vehicle in haste at a later point.
 

WinOrLose

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Sure, but does "more effective" mean "more accurate"? Or even "kills more people"?

Winning fire superiority by keeping the volume of fire up is definitely "more effective"...

Yes but firing in the right direction, having unseen enemies pointed out or able to be share enemy locations with others does help as well as spreading or concentrating fire as required is also important. This usually requires some sort of leadership.
 

Panzer_Freak

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I am quite new to this wonderful game, I am still not into all the details but could it be that leader exp affects the effectivness of directing indirect fire? I still do not have a 100% understanding how indirect fire works out in the game, but is it possible that the spotting and moving the indirect fire is better for good leaders than bad leaders? Have not had the time to try it out yet my self.
 

Josey Wales

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@Panzer_Freak an HQ unit which has a higher Experience will be able to call in a fire mission in less time all other things being equal. Delivery time is also affected by the Experience of the crew manning the weapon and the type of weapon being used.

@Valkatox made a couple of useful vids regarding indirect fire. However if you want a deeper answer to your question then I suggest running some tests in the editor.


 

Panzer_Freak

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@Panzer_Freak an HQ unit which has a higher Experience will be able to call in a fire mission in less time all other things being equal. Delivery time is also affected by the Experience of the crew manning the weapon and the type of weapon being used.

@Valkatox made a couple of useful vids regarding indirect fire. However if you want a deeper answer to your question then I suggest running some tests in the editor.



Bad that leadership has no effect at direct or indirect fire, if a squad leader is a crappy one he will position his squad bad and also lead his squads fire bad (with wrong distances and fire missions to the MG, rifle grenades and so on). And of course, a bad platoon leader can not call for indirect fire as effective or correct it as effective like a good one. Leadership should be an extra layer to experience as with morale, for realism reasons. But now it is like this, nothing to do! :)

Any way, thanks for your testings and videos. Really impressed that u have made this effort! Helpful.
 

Stafford

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After running some tests today I have been able to confirm something that I long suspected - our pixeltruppen are telepathic! (sort of).

It's no secret that our pixeltruppen react badly to seeing their mates get killed, but they react badly to it even when they are not in contact!

For reference:
hivemind.png

This platoon was spread out over a very large map, at no point during a unit being killed were they in contact with any other unit. All units were killed instantly due to being mounted in a vehicle, this vehicle then being destroyed by a Jagdpanther.

Here are my findings:

Scouts 3 Section/B Detachment killed at 1:11:31

1 Platoon -2/+1 Cautious from 1:11:28 to 1:11:23 (5 seconds), then OK
Light Mortar Detachment +2/-1 Cautious from 1:11:30 to ? (Persistent?)
1 Section 0/0 Cautious from 1:11:29 to 1:11:24 (5 seconds), then OK
2 Section 0/0 Cautious from 1:11:27 to 1:11:22 (5 seconds), then OK
3 Section 0/0 Never changed from OK (wow, cold hearted bastard!)

(Game reloaded)

3 Section/A Detachment (Section leader) killed at 1:12:07

1 Platoon -2/+1 Cautious from 1:12:05 to
Light Mortar Detachment +2/-1 Cautious from 1:12:04 to Persistent? (12 minutes elapsed)
1 Section 0/0 Cautious from 1:12:06 to 1:12:04 (2 seconds), Nervous from 1:12:04 to 1:11:55 (9 seconds), Cautious from 1:11:55 to Persistent? (12 minutes elapsed)
2 Section 0/0 Cautious from 1:12:04 to 1:12:02 (2 seconds), Nervous from 1:12:02 to 1:11:54 (8 seconds), Cautious from 1:11:54 to Persistent? (12 minutes elapsed)
3 Section/B Detachment 0/0 Cautious from 1:12:05 to Persistent? (12 minutes elapsed)
3 Section/C Detachment 0/0 Nervous from 1:12:04 to 1:11:59 (5 seconds), Cautious from 1:11:59 to Persistent? (12 minutes elapsed)

(Game reloaded)

1 Platoon -2/+1 killed at 1:09:37

Light Mortar Detachment +2/-1 Cautious from 1:09:36 to 1:09:21 (15 seconds), OK from 1:09:21
1 Section 0/0 Cautious from 1:09:35 to Persistent? (6 minutes elapsed)
2 Section 0/0 Cautious from 1:09:33 to Persistent? (6 minutes elapsed)
3 Section 0/0 Cautious from 1:09:34 to Persistent? (6 minutes elapsed)

(Then)

3 Section killed at 1:02:57

Light Mortar Detachment +2/-1 Cautious from 1:09:36 to 1:09:21 (15 seconds), OK from 1:09:21 to 1:02:56, [Rattled] from 1:02:56 to 1:02:01 (55 seconds), Nervous from 1:02:01 to Persistent? (10 minutes elapsed)
1 Section 0/0 Cautious from 1:09:35 to 1:02:55, Nervous from 1:02:55 to 1:02:53 (2 seconds), [Rattled] from 1:02:53 to Persistent? (10 minutes elapsed)
2 Section 0/0 Cautious from 1:09:33 to 1:02:54, Nervous from 1:02:54 to 1:02:52 (2 seconds), [Rattled] from 1:02:52 to 1:01:58 (56 seconds), Nervous from 1:01:58 to Persistent? (10 minutes elapsed)

Interestingly, some of the squads in other platoons, those with low motivation modifier (-1), changed from OK to Cautious, this effect also appears to be persistent.

(Game reloaded)

A company HQ killed, 2IC becomes new A company HQ - No reaction from any other unit.
Replacement A company HQ killed (2IC), still no reaction!
Battalion HQ killed, again no reaction.

3 Section Killed at 56:26

Everyonedislikedthat.jpg

1 Platoon -2/+1 [Rattled] from 56:22 to 56:02 (20 seconds), Nervous from 56:02 to Persistent? (12 minutes elapsed)
Light Mortar Detachment +2/-1 [Rattled] from 56:25 to 56:20 (5 seconds), Nervous from 56:20 to Persistent? (12 minutes elapsed)
1 Section 0/0 Nervous from 56:24 to 56:22 (2 seconds), [Rattled] from 56:22 to 56:07 (15 seconds), Nervous from 56:07 to Persistent? (12 minutes elapsed)
2 Section 0/0 Nervous from 56:24 to 56:22 (2 seconds), [Rattled] from 56:22 to 56:02 (20 seconds), Nervous from 56:02 to Persistent? (12 minutes elapsed)
3 Section/B Detachment 0/0 [Rattled] from 56:25 to 56:10 (15 seconds), Nervous from 56:10 to Persistent? (12 minutes elapsed)

Again, some of the squads in other platoons, those with low motivation modifier (-1), changed from OK to Cautious, this effect also appears to be persistent.


My conclusions:

  1. Morale effects are based mainly within a platoon. Only the most extreme shock effects such as an entire squad going boom filters through to others in the same company.
  2. The more pixeltruppen that are instantly killed, the more extreme the reaction by the remaining platoon units. (Note that they cared less about their HQ unit dying, than an entire squad.)
  3. These effects will occur regardless of C2, even at a range where their neighboring platoon units cannot possibly see or hear them.
  4. Low Motivation causes shock effects to happen more immediately after the event that caused it.
 
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