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The killing of Jochen Peiper

Michael Reynolds studied Peipers behaviour very closely in his book on his conduct during the Ardennes Offensive. It was a driven man, yes, but certainly not a blind fanatic, who ordered the death of all American soldiers who fell in German hands. I seem to recall he even had conversations with some American POWs. Apart from that it is common knowledge the Americans didn't hesitate to kill German POWs when the situation asked for it (or even when it didn't). In Robert J. Kershaws book on Arnhem 1944 it is mentioned that wounded Germans were thrown from the Nijmegen bridge in the river Waal and the Americans shot the rest of their prisoners. Such stories are not hard to believe if you watch how the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is fought. It is the nature of war, it brings the best and the worst we have in us. It has little to do with nationality or the cause one is fighting for.
 
well it is obvious that war crimes during war happened everywhere so obvious that we don't need to discuss this
the main problem here is that Peiper (as high ss officer and Himmler's adjutant) was responsible for murders on civilians.
What he has done when he saw "final solutions" and in front of him there were men,women, children were killed ?
Did he quit SS ?
What would you do in such situation ?
 
I can't even start to imagine and I thank God that I never had to find out. Apart from that, I don't agree that Peiper was responsible for murdering civilians. The situation was much more complicated than that. And I don't deny he was blinded by a dark ideology. We are measuring such men by our modern standards. And that just won't do. I think in war people chose to close their eyes for the crimes commited by their own side. It is a sort of survival. You must be able to believe you are fighting for the right cause. Even men like Stauffenberg and von Tresckow only began to develop second thoughts after realizing that they were losing the war. Even though they hated what the nazis did to the Jewish population of Europe. Such things are very, very complicated. Right or wrong, my country, that sort of thing. Stauffenberg had his faith. Peiper ' only' his patriotism. And in those times that still meant something.
 
What would you do in such situation ?

What would YOU do? With hindsight such is spoken easily. We can't tell because we weren't there. And we should be glad for that. But NEVER should we judge events we do know nothing about.
 
I am aware of that, and my question was provocative to start thinking about such a persons not only as soldiers who are obliged to follow orders but human beings in terrible times who had to choose.
But NEVER should we judge events we do know nothing about.
- I agree totally with that, thats why I was reading materials from trials and Peiper was sentenced to death by people who knew that horror and knew many who tried to be human during these days. Peiper from the very beginning to the very end was devoted Nazi, saw many mass murders and approved that. I wonder if you know details of genocide made by SS, have you ever been in Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Stutthof ? Have you seen pictures and films made by SS ? have you spoken with survivors ?I did and they clearly said that Germans was like any other nation but SS that was elite of scums with very few exceptions. Peiper was one of leaders of SS.
 
I wonder if you know details of genocide made by SS, have you ever been in Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Stutthof ? Have you seen pictures and films made by SS ? have you spoken with survivors ?I did and they clearly said that Germans was like any other nation but SS that was elite of scums with very few exceptions. Peiper was one of leaders of SS.

I actually have - that is required of every pupil in Germany since the war that we visit at least one concentration camp. And history lessons from 9th or 10th grade on always include the Third Reich. What I didn't do was speak with any survivors which is obviously quite difficult since not many are living here anymore.
Nontheless there still is the distinction to be made between the "Allgemeine SS" (which included concentration camp guards), the "Waffen-SS" and the "Einsatzgruppen" (I'm not exactly sure which branch they belonged to, but they had a very nasty reputation). This distinction has to be made and you also have to take a look at the individual men serving in the Waffen-SS. Some were just thugs, but others indeed were just soldiers serving their country.

I do not deny that Waffen-SS troops didn't shoot civilians or comitted other atrocities (but that goes for every army fighting in the war, including the Allied forces) but - as we have pointed out - that happens everywhere in a war, has happened in every war and will happen in every future one. The nature of war is that is dirty, unjust and completely inhumane because war is the total opposite of what I define as human condition. And you can't just declare every SS member to be a vile criminal because some were. That'd be the same as declaring every German a Nazi because eveyone followed Hitler and believed in him. A lot of men joined the SS because they were considered to be an elite fighting force, their combat reputation was very good and advancement was faster. That's of course only one part of the whole story, but do your eally believe all non-Germans (and I'm esepcially talking of our Scandinavian friends here) that fought in the SS joined because they believed in racial superiority/Hitler's nonsensical teachings and that every "sub-human being" had to be eradicated? It's not as simple as that and never has been.
 
40,000 dutch men served in the waffen ss. (Armando en Hans Sleutelaar "De SS'ers" isbn 9023400623)
Something a lot of dutch don't like to hear about.
 
talking about Peiper
he was present at many civilian executions,
he was adjutant to Himmler for long time
he visited ghettos and concentration camps
his units were in the same group as Einsatztruppen on East front
his men killed a lot of POW's
he was sentenced to death by war court based on evidences
On 1 September 1939, Fall Weiß began with Germany invading Poland, and the Soviet Union invading thereafter on 17 September. World War II in Europe had begun. As adjutant, Peiper followed this campaign in Himmler's entourage aboard the Reichsführer-SS's special train. Reich Minister of Foreign Affairs, Joachim von Ribbentrop, was also present.[21] Peiper worked closely to Himmler.[21] On 20 September he was with Himmler in Blomberg when he witnessed the execution of twenty Poles.[21] According to Peiper it left Himmler speechless for several days.[22]. Hitler had already ordered Himmler to eliminate the Polish intellectuals, as Peiper later related to Ernst Schäfer.[22] During the campaign of Poland, Reinhard Heydrich also issued orders to the Einsatzgruppen to kill Polish Jews.[21] Men of Peiper’s Waffen-SS unit from the Leibstandarte participated in such actions in the Burzeum area.[21]

The Feldherrnhalle in Munich

Once Poland was defeated he stayed beside Himmler and he may have been aware of the decisions taken by Himmler and his entourage with respect to the fate of that country.[23] He continued to accompany Himmler and attended the commemorative ceremonies of 9 October 1939 at the Feldherrnhalle in Munich. On 13 December 1939, in Poznan, he and Himmler attended the gassing of a resident of a psychiatric establishment. In postwar interrogations he described this in a technocratic way.
Peiper was appointed first adjutant of Himmler.[27]

At the beginning of the next year Himmler went for an inspection circuit of the Nazi concentration camps and was accompanied by his first adjutant, Peiper. On 14 January 1941, they visited Ravensbrück; on 21 they were in Dachau.[28] In March 1941, together with Karl Wolff and Fritz Bracht, they went to Auschwitz.[29] It was during this visit that Himmler instructed Höss to build the Birkenau concentration camp, but no precise information was yet given as to its final location.[30] During this period the idea of the "Final Solution" was taking form and it seems unlikely that in his capacity as first adjutant that Peiper would not have known something about it. To sustain this theory one needs to remember that during a trial in the 1960s it was demonstrated that Werner Grothmann (Peiper’s successor as first adjutant) was fully aware of the details of the genocide.[27]

The fact that Peiper approved of Himmler can maybe be found in a letter of his spouse to Hedwig Potthast, Himmler’s mistress:

"You know how much he loves, adores and admires KH"

In fact KH was an acronym for König Heinrich (King Heinrich), which also tells much about the advanced stage of familiarity of Sigurd Peiper with the circle of Himmler’s close relations.[31]

Himmler and his entourage travelled to Norway, Austria, Poland and the Balkans, in Greece.[32] These travels included a visit to the Lodz Ghetto about which 30 years later Peiper stated an account:

It was a macabre image: we saw how the Jewish Ghetto police, who wore hats without rims and were armed with wooden clubs, inconsiderately made room for us. The Jewish elders also presented Himmler with a bouquet of flowers.[32]
For Himmler, the war was essentially behind the front lines where SS units were in charge of liquidating the Jews and the partisans.[33] The duties of first adjutant included the presentation of the statistics provided by the Einsatzgruppen relating to the killings perpetrated on the Eastern Front.[34]

During these first months of the war in Russia the first adjutant duties of Peiper gradually came to an end. He transferred his duties to his successor Werner Grothmann and soon took command of a combat unit. He nevertheless remained in close contact with Himmler whom he met at numerous times. Himmler's excellent relations with him, who called him “my dear Jochen” in his letters went on until the end of the war.[33]

However, contrary to what transpired in May 1940, this time it is not Peiper himself who asked to be transferred to a combat unit. Apparently, Himmler wished to shelter Peiper from maneuvers in his entourage. Indeed, rumours were circulating about the death of Peiper’s brother, Horst, including one that he was homosexual.
With his company Peiper took part in the fighting at Mariupol and Rostov-on-Don. He was distinguished because of his fighting spirit but his unit also suffered high casualties. Furthermore, the killing of some prisoners of war foreshadowed what the war in the East would be like (on both sides).[36]

During its progress the Leibstandarte was followed by Einsatzgruppe D which organised the extermination of Jews and Communists. The Einsatzgruppe continued its operations even when the winter provisionally suspended the military operations. The "LSSAH" and the Einsatzgruppe shared the same winter quarters at Taganrog on the Azov Sea and sometimes elements of the division provided assistance to Einsatzgruppe D in its operations.[37]
The Soviets denounced Peiper and his men who were alleged to have set fire to two villages and massacred their inhabitants.[41] On 6 May 1943 the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold was awarded to him for his achievements in February 1943. It was also in February 1943 that his unit gained the nickname of “blowtorch battalion” because of Peiper's preference of attacking enemy held villages by night from all sides while driving at full throttle and firing all weapons which put the straw roofs of the buildings on fire and contributed to panic among enemy troops.[42] The blowtorch even became the unofficial tactical sign painted on the vehicles of the battalion
According to Faustino Dolmazzo, the advocate of the Italian partisans, when Peiper arrived in Boves the Germans empowered two Italians, one the priest of the city, in order to ask for the liberation of the two officers. Peiper promised no reprisals would happen. After the two men were freed around 3.00pm fire was set to all the houses of the village and 22 men were killed when they tried to flee. The two bodies of the two Italian intermediaries were found among the victims.[52]
During the same period the Jews of the area were arrested in order to be deported to the extermination camps. Simon Wiesenthal accused Peiper of providing his assistance for the setting up of the "Final Solution" for Jews of Northern Italy. Until his death Peiper repelled this accusation and accused Wiesenthal of having destroyed his civil existence.[54] He explained that under his own authority he had released a group of Jews from a concentration camp managed by Italians not for sympathy for the Jews but because their leader, a rabbi, was from Berlin like himself.[55] This story comes from Peiper himself and no independent source has confirmed it. Available sources show that within the families arrested in the area of Cuneo there was one that came from Berlin. This family was transferred to Drancy before being dispatched to Auschwitz where its members were gassed as were most of the Jews arrested in the Cuneo area.[54]
Five young recruits, indicted of having looted Belgian civilians, were sentenced to death by the martial court of the unit. During their trial they admitted to have stolen food, poultry and ham. The martial court verdict, one might argue, seemed out of proportion to the seriousness of the offences they committed, especially when looking at other similar cases. Peiper ordered the five executed on 28 May 1944 and made the other young recruits march past the corpses. It seems the execution had a rather negative impact on the morale of the regiment at that time.[63
On 17 December 1944 men belonging to Kampfgruppe Peiper massacred 84 American prisoners of war at the Baugnez crossroads near Malmedy. What has become known as the "Malmedy massacre" was not an isolated incident. Before this in Honsfeld, men of Peiper’s Kampfgruppe murdered several American prisoners.[83][84][85] Another murder of PoWs was reported in Büllingen.[83][84]
[edit]
Other murders

After Malmedy it was reported that men of Kampfgruppe Peiper killed at least eight more US POWs in Ligneuville.[86][87] Other murders of prisoners were perpetrated in Stavelot, Cheneux, La Gleize and Stoumont on 18, 19 and 20 December. On 19 December 1944, in the area between Stavelot and Trois-Ponts, while the Germans were trying to regain control of the bridge over the Amblève River (crucial for allowing reinforcements and supplies to reach the Kampfgruppe) men of Kampfgruppe Peiper killed a number of Belgian civilians. Eventually Kampfgruppe Peiper would be declared responsible for the death of 362 prisoners of war and 111 civilians.[88]
 
Peiper was not just a patriotic soldier - he was Nazi active high rank officer, cruel, merciless, cynical murderer
 
Peiper was not just a patriotic soldier - he was Nazi active high rank officer, cruel, merciless, cynical murderer
Altough i can see clearly the hate u have against NAZIS and i ve seen it through many of ur posts i cant say the same for
the Bolsheviks that ve done the same to ur country and sometimes even worse.
PS One question if i m allowed,are u of Jewish origin?
 
Cargol - I don't hate anybody I just don't like glorification of scums (mostly based on former propaganda) no matter from where they are.
One of the worst living creature on Earth was Felix Dzierzynski - Polish noble-man
My origin is not important in case of discussion.
I like to say that my origin is Earth and Paiper made crime to humankind also to Germans


PS I like wikipedia because people very fast verify data there. (and it easy to use :)
 
Everyone has their own opinions and to constantly repeat your own opinion will not sway other peoples. State your opinion and leave it at that. Personally I find it hard to have an opinion on this subject. Being removed from the time it happened, victors writing their own history, the international media hyperbole about all Nazis being evil scumbag criminals and the mindset of those involved the waters of 'right and wrong' get very muddied. To state a strong opinion one way or the other is fine but to nail my thoughts to one side or the other is impossible due lack of knowledge... if I was there at the time and experienced it then I could categorically state my opinion but going by 2nd and 3rd hand accounts you cant be sure.
 
I ve asked u cause it seems,i maybe wrong,that ur hate against NAZIS is coming from the suffering that Jews have been through and not because of the damage that Germans have done to Poland.
From what i know Katyn was by far the worst tragedy, that Poland suffered during its modern history.
Not only a whole generation of Polish was exterminated , the generation that could have resisted the transformation of Poland into a communist state,but another generation was forced to believe in lies,as for who had killed their family and they were forced not by the NAZIS but from their fellow Polish Communist members.
PS I dont know if u had seen a movie called Katyn but it is shading some light in those times without glorifying nobody.
 
No I don't have Jewish origins - I am from very old noble Polish family and my family lost everything because of soviets and then communists - one of my grand uncles (flying officer)was killed in Katyn.
Germans in Poland killed many, many more Poles then Russians did. There were (and still is among many) great hate against Russians and Germans in Poland but fortunately it is changing and majority of our population understand complexity of totalitarian regimes and people who were blinded by propaganda. For hundreds of years Germans were our allies and close economy partners so I hope now in EU we can reestablish this connections and do the same with Russians.
All above have nothing with denying that there were sums who murdered millions and IMHO they shouldn't be called "great commanders" "great conquerors" etc..
 
In a football game we accept that some players are not going to play by the rules, that's why the referee has yellow and red cards.
Same in war, there are always going to be some people who flout the Geneva Convention and rules of common decency, that's why there were war crimes trials after wars, and lots of Nazis and Japs were hung.
Interestingly, the SS recruited many Jews to be concentration camp guards ('kapos') who were often crueller towards fellow Jews than their SS bosses (read jewish eyewitness inmate Sim Kessel's book 'Hanged at Auschwitz') but as far as I know, most kapos were pardoned after the war.
 
I have read most of the posts and can see the VERY DISDAIN/DISLIKE of the Germans/Nazis by some. I would say hate, but mgk said he doesn't hate anyone.

Just because some discusses how a person leads or how brave a person is doesn't mean that everything that person did was acceptiable. Or that the person is a sympathizer or glorifying someone. I for one will never know everything about Peiper. Only Peiper and God truly knows. What I know is that Peiper was a great commander or he would have never been put in charge. Peiper would not have had as many awards or such repsect from the people he lead if he wasn't. Peiper also had his faults. I don't believe that he was at fault at Malmedy. Just the same I don't believe all the SS was as horrible as some on this thread and others portay the SS to be. They, just like us, are human and make errors in judgment, some errors are bigger than others. Whether it is becoming a member of an organization, fighting in a war etc. The actions of some is not the actions of everyone.

I have watched different programs (documentaries) about WWII and have come to a better understanding of individuals that fought on both sides. I have been appalled by the Allies and Axis powers actions. No one side had clean hands.

I believe Peiper was unjustly killed. I understand he was a German officer and killed many people while fighting. But, the actions that the individiuals took made them murders. Peiper was not killed during war he was killed 30 years after the war ended. How can that be justified?
 
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