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Drifter Man vs Titan DAR

It wasn't until today that I understood the difference between probe, attack, assault. I look at everything with an ME eye, I guess.

Still need to wrap my head around that. Be curious as to kill ratio variable from probe to attack?
 
@holoween , @KGBoy - if you want to play on the same map, you may want to reverse the "friendly map edges" directions in the Scenario Editor. They are set up incorrectly. Apart from the artillery raining from the wrong side, I have just seen a few Titan soldiers running towards me in panic... it could be related.
The map doesnt seem especially aweful to defend to me.
While the easiest option of simply covering the frontline in trps and smashing the attacker with arty when they concentrate to take a position is impractical with the points constrictions the terrain offers enough difficult to take positions.

We had a 15% point limit on artillery and max. 2x TRP attacker, 1x TRP defender for this reason.
Not awfully difficult to defend, not great either, in my opinion. There are some difficult to take positions but nothing that on-map mortars couldn't reach in the end.
 
Fundamentally I disagree with giving up any reasonably defensible ground to the enemy. In Combat Mission a defenders allies are time and distance so you have to make the most of both, the longer you can prevent him from getting close to a CP the more likely the chances he will make risky plays in order to push for the win as the clock runs down.
As a defender if you give up ground without a fight and place yourself in a static defensive position with no room to retreat or maneuver, you allow the enemy to roll up to your position and take his time in dismantling your defences with his numerical superiority.
An exception to this could possibly be made for forgoing a forward defense in an open or wooded area and instead concentrating your forces in a built up area with heavy buildings due to the difficulty of assaulting such positions.

Looking over the map again, I'm not sure that this map is defensible given the time allocated to the attacker - especially as there are mid-map CPs that the defender is obliged to defend or settle for a probably draw at best, with the current CP layout I'd argue that an hour is more appropriate. If there was only the rear-most CP, maybe an hour and fifteen.
As @Drifter Man said himself, he's had the time available to be very cautious and methodical in his advance and minimise casualties, even with all that he is poised for the final assault still with sixteen minutes available.

I'm not sure that Titan has done much wrong in his defence, bunkers are an interesting choice and, IMO, highly situational. I think that he's simply had too much time to try to burn down and holding ground against Red SMG squads is a very tough ask.
I mostly agree with that. I still think that having bunkers and forgoing artillery and especially on-map mortars was a mistake committed in the purchase screen, although it might have made difference only in the cost I would have to pay for taking the map. But Titan's ability to move his defenders around and recycle units again and again has been quite frustrating. As @Nemesis said, he is an excellent mobile defender.

Shortening the time available would make things more difficult (even impossible) for the attacker, but I would not commit to an extremely time-constrained attack. I do not enjoy this as the attacker and as the defender, I want to be able to hold the objectives "indefinitely". I'd rather give up points. I could agree to a battle that is a delaying action - a weaker defender trying to slow down the attacker as much as possible and with the option to exit the map at the end.
 
The last stand...

Ebub0q5.jpg
 
It seems you were able to take the village without tank support in the end.
 
It seems you were able to take the village without tank support in the end.
On the contrary - the tanks took out four HMG positions that would be difficult to crack for the infantry alone. I just keep them at safe distance, so they are not showing in the screenshot. There was no good reason for pushing them closer.
 
Turn 86. The last three defenders die in a blaze of glory, taking two of my men with them.


Turn 89. My opponent surrenders the empty map to me. There are no prisoners to take.

My kill counter stops at 149:298, the actual numbers turn out to be 148:326. I'll post a more detailed analysis later.

htVqxF6.png


VGUhm7w.png
 
I got $50 that says those troops are very high quality, accuracy and reaction like that isn't seen with anything less. The strategy is pretty good too, ambush and fall back, ambush and fall back, this way he can get the most bang for his buck from his expensive troops and wear down your morale and eat up time.
Just my 2c but in this situation I'd be concentrating forces on one side with the majority of your armour to punch through en masse with lots of supporting area fire, have a blocking force in the centre to prevent him from attacking your flank, then when he either attempts to attack the blocking force or fall back, have another smaller force at the north of the map to push in there. He either has to retreat or be caught in a pincer.

Good DAR so far though, really enjoying it. :cool:(y)
Right one, that was the idea, ambush..make him pause and then fall back
 
Actually, when I said "absurdity", I meant it in comparison to what I see happening everywhere else on the battlefield - I am in no position to judge if it is realistic. In CM, hundreds of rounds are expended to make just a few kills. And here one guy with a SMG fired 6, 7 and 3 rounds from 200 meters at a HQ team in a bunker to get the 1st, 2nd and 3rd kill (the 3rd was in the next turn). No spraying was involved. Praying - maybe :)
This is definitely a bug or a glitch. When pixeltruppen stand up to fire the MG from the bunker, they become extremely exposed (not visibly, but behind the scenes in the game) and easy to kill. The protection of the bunker just doesn't count at that point, at least from some angles. One kill would be a fluke, three kills using 16 rounds within about 20 seconds are a clear pattern.

Here is the situation from the perspective of the shooter:
kVPTHFZ.jpg

I was a section commander in the NZ army during the 80's in a rifle company, expending huge amounts of rounds in a firefight inflicting few deaths would be pretty normal. First job in most cases when a unit fires at another is to win the firefight and that is done by supressing the enemy. When one has ashit load of bullets landing very close by people tend to go into there shell. Any kills i would think would be considered good fortune. Losing those guys in the bunker to SMG at 200meters is not normally what you expect, but a lot of this stuff you have to put down to good fortune as that is also the reality of war, there is always a chance of unusual things happening. So in my mind i find odd things quite acceptable in CM because it does reflect reality.
 
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I'm curious about how effective Drifter's initial barrage was on your end?

I was expecting it. I had no choice but to leave a force up the front. I think i spread Auk company along the front line and some HMG units. My main force was at the rear which i moved forward when i was sure the intial barrage was over. The tripwire company lost about a 3rd of its troops and another third shaken or rattled and my AA truck taken out. However the effectiveness was not so much in the direct losses it caused but more in the fact that it had a huge impact on how i ideally wanted to deploy my defence . My main idea was to have an elastic sort of defence as in keep it deep and mobile , if Drifter looked to be looking like an overwhelming assualt i would try and get out and i had another line behind that they would withdraw to. If he wasnt strong in his attack i could move units forward and make a fight of the location. Didnt work out everytime but the whole idea way to play for time. When he was in the last objective he cleared me out with just 4 turns left. A few things earlier go my way or mistakes i made could of made the difference. All the same it was a really good and interesting battle. Despite my higher loses i felt i could still pull something out of the hat close to the end
 
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I was thinking alternative defence with Titan's assets still largely intact in the end zone. The problem with defending forward is that is where the attacking force is already. Make the attacker do all the work of bringing everything forward.

Not much was accomplished for Titan in the forward position and surely your 130 DeadorWounded could have been achieved at less cost to him. I imagine the same for you?

So 3 AT bunkers at 11:00, 1:00 and 3:00. IOW precisely sited to your present tank positions. HMGs in buildings. Troops in foxholes behind the buildings.

Added pressure could be long duration harassing mortar fire all along the front.

That would be a very hard nut to crack.

The cost is an effective counterattack may well be precluded.

I would be curious about how people think what makes a successful defence. A stalemate would be my bottom line for success. I could well be wrong!
The defender is really up against it here, game ended in Drifters favour with just four turns left, some things i could have done differently that could of made a difference, but that also causes the opponent to react and do differently as well. When i attacked i was rather agressive anf lost alot more than Drifter did but won alot more comfortably as far as time goes. My Assesment of this is perhaps 90 Minutes is long for this battle and perhaps 75min is proabably a better option and gives the defender a realistic chance of hanging in there. I won our game within that period but took alot more chances. Drifter won with just 4 turns left but he did play with the time in mind and his style was a cautious one taking less risks and taking his time taking out my strong points. The attacker needs to be under more pressure with this map and i think 75minutes would balance things more so perhaps still in attackers favour but the defender with a well thought out plan still has a good chance as opposed to very little chance as it is now
 
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My Assesment of this is perhaps 90 Minutes is long for this battle and perhaps 75min is proabably a better option and gives the defender a realistic chance of hanging in there. I won our game within that period but took alot more chances. Drifter won with just 4 turns left but he did play with the time in mind and his style was a cautious one taking less risks and taking his time taking out my strong points.
I'd say that the comparison of how we managed our time is not entirely fair here. I was aware that I had plenty of time available, so I took my time to advance methodically against the last objective. I could have rushed it - I had a 10:1 advantage in manpower. But I did not want to take the extra losses when there was no need to rush: I see no advantage in finishing early if it costs me more. I wasn't that far behind you in the other game when it comes to schedule.
 
I'd say that the comparison of how we managed our time is not entirely fair here. I was aware that I had plenty of time available, so I took my time to advance methodically against the last objective. I could have rushed it - I had a 10:1 advantage in manpower. But I did not want to take the extra losses when there was no need to rush: I see no advantage in finishing early if it costs me more. I wasn't that far behind you in the other game when it comes to schedule.

Hey i agree, thats why i mentioned you played with the clock in mind, without doubt you could of rolled in quicker but was not pressed to do so. In this case it was more of the fact we had two different styles none worse than the other, however from a soviet solders perspective i would of much rather been in your Russian army than my Russian Army :)
 
So, after a bit of forensic work over the battlefield, I reconstructed most of @Titan's force:
  • Aufklärungs Battalion (Mot)
    • 1 Company - Veteran, complete with 3 platoons and a MG platoon with 4 MG teams
    • 2 Company - Regular, just 1 Platoon and the MG platoon with another 4 MG teams
  • Volksgrenadier Battalion
    • 1 Company - Veteran, just 1 Platoon (Sturm) and 4x Panzerschreck
    • 4 Company - Veteran, 8 MG teams
  • 1x Pz IVJ
  • 1x Marder IIIM
  • 1x SPW 251/9 "Stummel" halftrack
  • 1x SPW 251/1 halftrack
  • Supply platoon - 2x Truck with SMG ammo
  • 2x AT Bunker (PaK40)
  • 1x Wood Bunker (MG)
  • 5x foxholes
  • 9x antipersonnel mines
  • 1x antivehicle mines
I am not sure about the mines. I don't see any other mines on the map that I did not "find" myself during the game and it seems unlikely that I somehow triggered all the minefields that Titan had placed.
Also, I don't know what leadership or motivation modifiers Titan used - the game does not tell me that - but he had plenty of points left to raise it by 1 to 2 notches. Especially the sturmgrenadiers fought like lions. No one surrendered, my only prisoners were the 5 from the bunker.

My losses were caused by:
  • 16x HMG teams (54)
  • Marder (9)
  • Wood bunker (MG) (3)
  • Halftrack (1)
  • AT Bunkers (about 10 - the review screen does not tell me and I don't have the records)
  • Mines (13, plus BA-64 destroyed and M3A1 scout car immobilized - which was my stuff-up)
  • Friendly fire (7)
  • Other infantry - the rest of the total (about 105-110 50)
Titan's losses were caused by:
  • 7x T-34 tanks (73 + all the armor losses; they were mainly active at the start and at the end but did a great job, even when I kept them out of schreck range at all times)
  • 3x BA-64 armored cars (9)
  • 9x 82mm mortars (34)
  • 6x 50mm mortars (32; a very powerful appendage of the '43 Rifle Battalion, will buy again)
  • 12x SG43 machineguns (22)
  • 9x Sniper teams (10)
  • 1st turn artillery strike (18 + SdKfz 7/1 destroyed); as Titan said, more of a disruption, in my view not worth the points in terms of casualties. But I liked the noise it made.
  • AT Rifles (2 halftrack crew)
  • Other infantry - most of the rest (126)
On my side, 1st company was rendered ineffective with 65% casualties among the SMG and rifle platoons (Titan might not want to sign up for the Rattled Regulars). 2nd company suffered 28% casualties, the rest was relatively fine in CM terms. I lost 24% of my personnel in total.

I had a lot of fun in both games of this mirror match - thanks to @Titan for being a great opponent, and apologies for shooting him in the bunker - my German Battalion commander was alive at the end and surrendered with the rest if I recall...

EDIT: Seriously, I shouldn't do any math after 10 pm.
 
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