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Bin Laden Is Dead

PoorOldSpike said:
In the interests of balance, I'd just like to remind the muslim world that there are a lot of people (including me) who don't think it was right for Israel to pinch Palestine in the 1967 Six Day War with the aid of western cash and weaponry, and I think Israel should give it back.
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OK, when you're going up this road: when is England giving back -if they should want it- the independence of Scotland and Wales ?

PoorOldSpike said:
Now that Bin's gone, let's hope the muslim world eases off on the violence and tries to win the hearts and minds of westerners by appealing to their sense of fair play by diplomacy and persuasion instead of continuing to resort to suicide bombs and bullets, thereby alienating a lot of westerners against them.
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Very much wishful thinking. Bin Laden wasn't by far the only radical muslim. Just last week there was a bomb attack in Marakesh, Morocco, targeted at western tourists.

PoorOldSpike said:
From 'Lawrence of Arabia'-
Prince Feisal: "But you know, Lieutenant, in the Arab city of Cordoba were two miles of public lighting in the streets when London was a village?"
T.E. Lawrence: "Yes, you were great."
Prince Feisal: "Nine centuries ago."
T.E. Lawrence: "Time to be great again, my lord."
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That are lines out of a movie so perhaps a little romantisized ? Cordoba and Bagdad were great muslim/arab cities, but then also the muslim world was far larger then just Cordoba and Bagdad. Don't know if the splendour of a few cities are related to the faith or being a arabian. One could argue that neither Bagdad nor Cordoba had an arabian population (or just a small portion).
 
The sooner Israel is forced by western opinion to give back Palestine, the sooner there's a chance for peace.
It must stick in every Muslims craw that not only did Israel invade and take Palestine in 1967, but they did it with American-supplied tanks and aircraft, and America has also been supporting Israel ever since with cash and super-duper weaponry.
Beats me why the great American people don't start asking "why the hell are we supporting Israel and making ourselves a terror target as Israel's friend? WTF has Israel ever done for us?"

In fact on 9/11 when somebody broke the news to me by saying- "I just heard on the radio that terrorists have flown planes into buildings", I wasn't the least bit surprised and replied-"it had to happen sooner or later, I could see it coming"
And when Tel Aviv is obliterated by a muslim nuke bomb in the future I won't be the least bit surprised then too.

Like I said, there can be no hope for peace til Israel hands back Palestine.

"We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation." - Osama bin Laden - to CNN in March 1997
 
In my opinion you (over)simplify this subject.

I assume you mean with Palestine the so called "occupied territories" which they conquered in 1967. Their "invasion" in 1967 was a pre-emptive strike against the states of Egypt, Syria and Jordan. The westbank was part of the kingdom of Jordan. It was considered then a legitimate defense of their own country because of the very agressive posture of these countries.

Bin Laden (and Hamas) don't want the Israeli to give up just these territories but they want the whole of Palestine "back".

For the record: in 1967 the most modern aircraft of the IAF were French built Mirage IIIC and Supermysteres. Phantoms and the like came after 1967. And you're understimating the Israeli arms industry. But they do lean heavily on America political support.

Are you perhaps exposed for too long to the anti-israel "press" ?
 
Bert Blitzkrieg said:
..In my opinion you (over)simplify this subject..
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Yes mate, I have the priceless gift of being able to cut through all the waffle and bullshit and see things in crisp clear black and white-
"If somebody says something's not a black and white issue I say 'why the hell not?"- John Wayne

Sadly, kids nowadays are taught that there's no clear cut answer to anything and that there are always two sides to everything blah blah, and as a result they grow up half-neurotic and insecure with mushy brains..:)
 
If you're really interested in balance you might point out that Isreal did not "pinch" Palestine. In fact most of the prominent Arab leaders and Mullahs at that time encouraged the Arab population to leave so that all the Arab armies would have a free hand in destroying the nascent state of Isreal. They never dreamed that Isreal could survive. They had a large hand in doing it to themselves, as they later admitted.

In addition the situation between Isreal and the Arabs was only used by Al-Qaeda as a tool or an excuse. If the problem was fixed today, there would be no decrease in radical militancy from that quarter.

It is interesting to read some accounts Bin Laden's brand of Jihadism may losing force in the Muslim world. Many in Egypt are proud of the fact that their revolution was carried out by young people, while Al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood sat on their hands.
 
Palestine was a creation of the British. Way before there was a Palestine or the Muslim religion that region was known as Judea. That was the home of the Jews. The Romans conquered them and drove them out. They have the historic claim to that land that goes back hundreds of years before Islam. To hell with the Muslims, the jews should just wipe them out.
Lord Bane
 
Lord Bane (FGM) said:
..To hell with the Muslims, the jews should just wipe them out..
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Either way it's not our fight which is why I can't figger out why America is sticking its nose in and getting involved by supporting Israel.
PS, speaking of 'historic claims', let America give America back to the Indians, and Australia give Australia back to the aborigines..:)
 
PoorOldSpike said:
Either way it's not our fight which is why I can't figger out why America is sticking its nose in and getting involved by supporting Israel.
PS, speaking of 'historic claims', let America give America back to the Indians, and Australia give Australia back to the aborigines..:)
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And Ireland to the Irish. Etcetera, etcetera.

The Palestine problem is made to some degree by the English (during WW1) by promising the area to both jews and arabs.
 
It appears this thread has meandered just a bit, but before it gets back on track I'll add this.

The reasons we support Israel is simple. There are and has always been more influential Jewish Americans than Muslim Americans. Israel was the only country in the region with a pluralistic society combined with elected representation. And, history has shown that European and Middle-Eastern cultures are somewhat hostile towards Jewish culture. The result is that America has decided to watch Israel's back and Israel hasn't behaved in such a way as to diminish our commitment.
 
When terrorists get nukes it's really gonna hit the fan, for example all they'll have to do is sail an innocent-looking cargo ship carrying a nuke bomb into any American port city and Boom!
Or they could simply detonate it a few miles offshore and let the radioactive tsunami take out the city.
If the American people are happy to pay that price for supporting Israel and making themselves a terror target it's none of my business.
Heck, untrustworthy Pakistan and US-hating North Korea already have nukes so it's only a matter of time before they "accidentally" fall into terrorist hands, the clock is ticking..

<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-l6Q8Q1smwg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
Bert Blitzkrieg said:
..The Palestine problem is made to some degree by the English (during WW1) by promising the area to both jews and arabs.
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That's fine on paper, but any chances of peaceful co-existence went up the spout when Israeli Sherman tanks rolled into Palestine in 1967, and they've been bulldozing Arab houses ever since to make way for new Israeli settlements. Even western governments are feeling uncomfortable about that, and Israel is beginning to look like the bad guys in the world's eyes.
Best strategy for Israel would be to get out of Palestine and return to pre-67 borders; it might not bring peace at a stroke but would certainly ease tensions and make Israel look not so bad.
Don't get me wrong, I've got no beef with Jews and have said in this forum before how I regard Hitler as a psychotic nutter for doing the holocaust, and I also regularly vote jewish Jerry Lewis's 'The Nutty Professor' as the funniest film of all time in polls..:)
 
PoorOldSpike said:
The muslim world disagrees-
"We don't recognize the state of Israel or its right to hold onto one inch of Palestine. Palestine is an Islamic land belonging to all the Muslims."
-Dr. Mahmud al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, The Jerusalem Post, August 18, 2005

http://shatteredparadigm.blogspot.com/2009/01/shocking-quotes-by-hamas-regarding.html
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That's not what they said in 1948. AND you're quoting Hamas. What do you think you'll get?

In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:

“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return†(The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, Beirut, 1973, Part 1, pp. 386-387).
 
I could go on pulling quotes out of the hat, here are a few more-

"To hell with you all."
-Khalid al-Mish'al, leader of Hamas, speaking about German Chancellor Merkel's call for Hamas to recognize Israel, Al-Jazeera TV, February 3, 2006

"Israel is not a legitimate entity, and no amount of pressure can force us to recognize its right to exist."
-Dr. Mahmud Al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, Washington Times, February 4, 2006

"Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations"
-Yasser Arafat
 
I was always wondering in a hypothetical war between USA and Israel, a US citizen of Jewish origin which side will take?
 
That is an interesting question. But the odds of that happening are zero. It is as silly as a possible war between the US and Britain. It is just not going to happen.
Lord Bane
 
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